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0 - from the beginning.
09-09-2009, 03:14 PM
Post: #1
0 - from the beginning.
Ok, I’m suggesting here, if it’s ok with you Raph, to take your ideas from a foundation and work up. As I said in the thread about 15, ideas need to with stand criticism and hold water. A lot of the links in your ideas are not clear to other people, and that is what I wish to address.

I do not want this to seem an attack on your ideas and beliefs, but more of an examination. It does no one any harm to criticise things, and debates are one of the sources of learning.

To quote Crowley, ‘We here purposely avoid dwelling on the mere silliness of many Gematria correspondences’. (page 21, Gematria, 777, Weiser)

So, as a foundation I would suggest we begin thus:

You have stated that Jesus is an archetypal figure, and this I agree upon. This is not meant to offend those of a Christian nature on this forum, but the evidence is fairly overwhelming as the similarities between the stories of dying and re-born gods indicate that this is an ancient human myth; see Osiris, Dionysus, etc. Indeed, as I stated in another thread, the trial of Jesus is pretty similar to that of Dionysus in The Bacchae.

Now, swastikas are obviously archetypal as so many cultures have used them, often as a solar symbol and as a representation of the Most High (i.e. God).

I still don’t quite follow how Jesus = 15. I know early Christians used the swastika as a symbol for Christ, but the amount of info you post (and yes, I’ve read most of it now) gets overwhelming and much can seem tenuous.

So, from these two archetypes that we are agreed on, would you do me the honour of furthering this discussion in small chunks, only one point at a time so I can check and cross reference it. I know you are convinced you are right, so I hope this is of value to you too, as every idea should be checked, otherwise people aren’t going to get your message.

Hope this is cool with you
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09-10-2009, 05:33 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2009 05:35 PM by Raphael.)
Post: #2
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
(09-09-2009 03:14 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  Ok, I’m suggesting here, if it’s ok with you Raph, to take your ideas from a foundation and work up.
Hope this is cool with you

no problem, I have been working on the problem of making it simple to understand.

title of this thread is from '0' ... from the beginning.

[Image: AstroWheel.jpg]

from the beginning then...thus the question is...on the zodiac wheel...which of the 12 signs begins in '0' degrees and is assigned #1?

360 degrees to the wheel.
30 degrees are assigned to each of the 12 signs of the zodiac.

Do you agree that it is ARIES?

yes or no?
you must satisfy yourself...don't take my word for it.
do your homework and then get back to me.

If we agree it is Aries we can move on.
If you disagree please state why.

namaste

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

CodeX4 and the Reconciliation of Science and Religion
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09-10-2009, 07:08 PM
Post: #3
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
Yep, I'm happy that the first sign is Aries. This is because, as we both know, the ancients regarded astronomy and astrology as the same art, and they named this Aries for various reasons. We can debate the validity of astrology later if it crops up, but as a start I'm happy with this.
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09-11-2009, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2009 10:53 AM by Raphael.)
Post: #4
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
(09-10-2009 07:08 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  Yep, I'm happy that the first sign is Aries. This is because, as we both know, the ancients regarded astronomy and astrology as the same art, and they named this Aries for various reasons. We can debate the validity of astrology later if it crops up, but as a start I'm happy with this.

good
as you will soon see...this stuff is quite simple
I keep reminding myself this should be simple enough for a child to understand and comprehend its intuitive archetypal merits.

[Image: greekcrosszodiaccross.jpg][Image: swastikaancientchaldeanzodiacalcros.jpg]

Above we see the Greek Zodiacal (left) and Chaldean Zodiacal Crosses (right).
Take the Greek Cross on the left and substitute for the twelve zodiac signs the numbers we see on the wheel in the post before this one.

[Image: PrecessionStep1.jpg]

As agreed ARIES representing #1, TAURUS #2, GEMINI #3 etc.
You should end up with a cross that looks similar to the one above.
All twelve zodiac signs assigned a pecking order.
All twelve of these signs sit within 9 degrees of the ecliptic.

Then you simply join the twelve dots.
Precessing backwards...thus counting backwards.
The REAL starting point of any calender is the contentious issue.
We can deal with this issue later.


[Image: PrecessionStep3.jpg][Image: quatrefoil01-at.jpg]

Then once completed, once all the dots have been joined, it should look like the above archetypal shape that resembles a quatre-foil (fig. on the right).

[Image: greekzodiaccrosswithserpent300px.jpg]

And after I had arrived at an archetypal truth...I came across the above image that has replaced my LINE joining the twelve signs of the zodiac with a snake eating its tail in ARIES?
Exactly the same depiction.
The author of the above image is Aleister Crowley.

But an even more important archetypal structure I want you to clue into, is this next one >>>

[Image: PrecessionStepValances300px.jpg]

It shows the KEYs that resemble a KEYPAD

1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9

147 and 10 (same as 1) are found in the FIRST BLUE ring
258 and 11 (same as 2) are found in the SECOND GREEN ring
369 and 12 (same as 3) are found in the THIRD RED ring

Follow so far Zagreus?
How CARD X and the Greek Zodiac Cross are powerful mnemonics for the PRECESSION cycle?

to be continued...let me know if I have lost you.

extra reading if interested:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2009/07...companion/
http://2012forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=87712#p87712

A favorite of mine written 2 years ago:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2007/08...in-a-knot/

namaste

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

CodeX4 and the Reconciliation of Science and Religion
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/about/
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09-13-2009, 10:15 PM
Post: #5
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
You've not lost me yet, but there are a few issues I'd like to address so that you have a water tight theory. I think this is necessary before we move on.

(09-11-2009 10:41 AM)Raphael Wrote:  [Image: greekcrosszodiaccross.jpg][Image: swastikaancientchaldeanzodiacalcros.jpg]

Above we see the Greek Zodiacal (left) and Chaldean Zodiacal Crosses (right).
Take the Greek Cross on the left and substitute for the twelve zodiac signs the numbers we see on the wheel in the post before this one.

Just out of interest here, do you know why the Greeks placed the astrological symbols at these points on the cross? I had a look on the net, but couldn't find an explanation that quickly.

Also with the Chaldean one, who added the zodiac signs on? Simply putting where you got the images from would help a great deal. This doesn't matter that much here for your argument, but it'd just be useful as evidence.

(09-11-2009 10:41 AM)Raphael Wrote:  [Image: PrecessionStep1.jpg]

As agreed ARIES representing #1, TAURUS #2, GEMINI #3 etc.
You should end up with a cross that looks similar to the one above.
All twelve zodiac signs assigned a pecking order.
All twelve of these signs sit within 9 degrees of the ecliptic.

Then you simply join the twelve dots.
Precessing backwards...thus counting backwards.
The REAL starting point of any calender is the contentious issue.
We can deal with this issue later.


[Image: PrecessionStep3.jpg][Image: quatrefoil01-at.jpg]

Then once completed, once all the dots have been joined, it should look like the above archetypal shape that resembles a quatre-foil (fig. on the right).

Ok, I'm all good with the joining the dots. As stated, if we knew why the Greeks put them in that order it would be interesting too, and add weight to your argument.

I'm not sold on it resembling a quatre-foil. The image you give on the right is symmetrical, whereas the one we are looking at is not. This is not wholly important to what you are saying, so we can skip this if you agree that this issue is not fundamental. (The one on the left looks more like a swastika to me than a symmetrical shape, but then I'm as bad as you in seeing swastikas everywhere!)

(09-11-2009 10:41 AM)Raphael Wrote:  [Image: greekzodiaccrosswithserpent300px.jpg]

And after I had arrived at an archetypal truth...I came across the above image that has replaced my LINE joining the twelve signs of the zodiac with a snake eating its tail in ARIES?
Exactly the same depiction.
The author of the above image is Aleister Crowley.

Based on the joining of the dots before, I'm ok with this image, and I agree this one does look like a quatre-foil. I wouldn't read too much into this at the moment though. Incidently, where's that image from? References dear sir! I'm fairly familiar with Crowley's work, but can't think where that image is from.

If the main crux of what you're inferring by this image is the Ouroboros starting and finishing at Aries, then I follow you.

(09-11-2009 10:41 AM)Raphael Wrote:  But an even more important archetypal structure I want you to clue into, is this next one >>>

[Image: PrecessionStepValances300px.jpg]

It shows the KEYs that resemble a KEYPAD

1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9

147 and 10 (same as 1) are found in the FIRST BLUE ring
258 and 11 (same as 2) are found in the SECOND GREEN ring
369 and 12 (same as 3) are found in the THIRD RED ring

Follow so far Zagreus?
How CARD X and the Greek Zodiac Cross are powerful mnemonics for the PRECESSION cycle?

to be continued...let me know if I have lost you.

extra reading if interested:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2009/07...companion/
http://2012forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=87712#p87712

A favorite of mine written 2 years ago:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2007/08...in-a-knot/

namaste

I've had a look at the links you posted, but I'd like to go over the relevance of these numbers in rings if that's ok with you. I see what you're saying, but once the other points I've made have been put to rest, then we can look at these in more detail before moving on. Hope that's all good with you? It'd be good to have this thread as a 'from the beginning, Raphael's ideas, solidly proved'.
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09-14-2009, 08:28 AM (This post was last modified: 09-14-2009 08:49 AM by Raphael.)
Post: #6
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
(09-13-2009 10:15 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  
(09-11-2009 10:41 AM)Raphael Wrote:  [Image: PrecessionStepValances300px.jpg]

147 and 10 (same as 1) are found in the FIRST BLUE ring
258 and 11 (same as 2) are found in the SECOND GREEN ring
369 and 12 (same as 3) are found in the THIRD RED ring
I've had a look at the links you posted, but I'd like to go over the relevance of these numbers in rings if that's ok with you.

I want to clear this up, to show you I do not make up or need to fabricate evidence...there is far too much of it.
I merely *join* the dots.

Important to know...in Astrology...invented long before me...how the 12 signs are grouped.
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TheSigns.htm

1, 4, 7, and 10 are the Cardinal Signs
2, 5, 8, and 11 are the Fixed Signs
3, 6, 9, and 12 are the Mutable Signs

Maybe that is why they were arranged in that order?
Maybe that is why the experts are mum and dumb about 'precession of the equinoxes', because we might need to re-introduce the ancient art of astrology to the domains called astronomy, physics, and mathematics?

How do you see that cross above?
I have shown you several ways to view it.
View it as a teaching tool.

What do you see now when looking at that cross?
Do you see:
1/ three rings that each contain a grouping representing all 4 elements placed onto a square cross.
OR
2/ four arms of a square cross, and each arm of the cross represents each of the 4 elements, fire is one arm, water another, earth etc, air etc, and zodiac sign represents one of the twelve tribes in the old testament.

So do you see 3 x 4 OR 4 x 3 OR 4 + 4 + 4 OR perhaps even 4 cubed i.e. 4 x 4 x 4 = 64 = 64 codons of DNA necessary for all life?

[Image: reb.gif]
REBIS

That exercise might answer some of your questions to this point, along with this image called the Rebis, and coincidentally those numbers 4 and 3 again appear when discussing the cosmic egg we see in that image above, the hermes+aphrodite, the alchemic marriage.

The number that is missing is 5 from that image.
3 = triangle
4 = square or diamond or lozenge
5 = circle

3 4 5 = right angle triangle *code*
note: the square and the compass in the image.
one held in the LEFT and the other in the RIGHT
the symbolism appears divided down the middle.

Yes I am glad you noticed that the precession cycle I drew resembles the swastika and the image I attribute to ACrowley you agree resembles the quatrefoil...and maybe the 'four leaf clover too'?

[Image: CLiungmanquatrefoilTimothyLearyL-1.jpg]
There is a very cool reason why those 'quatrefoil' connections keep resurfacing in art, religion, spirituality and geometry.

But I will need for you to drop some 'cid dude, pass through some doors and visit Jim Morrison and other shamans on the other side:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2008/12...d-shamans/

namaste

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

CodeX4 and the Reconciliation of Science and Religion
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/about/
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09-14-2009, 12:26 PM
Post: #7
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
(09-14-2009 08:28 AM)Raphael Wrote:  I want to clear this up, to show you I do not make up or need to fabricate evidence...there is far too much of it.
I merely *join* the dots.

Important to know...in Astrology...invented long before me...how the 12 signs are grouped.
http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/TheSigns.htm

1, 4, 7, and 10 are the Cardinal Signs
2, 5, 8, and 11 are the Fixed Signs
3, 6, 9, and 12 are the Mutable Signs

Maybe that is why they were arranged in that order?

Yep, checked, and I'll buy that as a possible reason why they were arranged so.

This strikes me so far as a reasonable pace to go, so others who read this understand what you're saying. My understanding of astrology is ecclectic but sceptical, and my knowledge of alchemy isn't too bad, but it helps to have all points explained none-the-less

(09-14-2009 08:28 AM)Raphael Wrote:  But I will need for you to drop some 'cid dude, pass through some doors and visit Jim Morrison and other shamans on the other side:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2008/12...d-shamans/

Ok, the bit on numbers others can work out the significance to them, and whether they like it. I get what you're doing, but relating numbers like that will just alienate people. We need to keep to more stable things to get a solid foundation.

For this reason, can we skip the Leary bit and move to another part of your ideas that relate to this? As much as I like Leary, he was, as far as I'm aware, discredited by academia as he became a bit of a burnt out old hippy who'd done too much acid. I've glanced at your link, and we can deal with that later/in another conversation. Psychedelic philosophy is not what solid ideas are built upon!

Incidently, why does 5 = circle in the bit you put about Rebis? 3 & 4 are self explanatory.
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09-14-2009, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 09-14-2009 01:51 PM by Raphael.)
Post: #8
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
(09-14-2009 12:26 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  This strikes me so far as a reasonable pace to go, so others who read this understand what you're saying. My understanding of astrology is ecclectic but sceptical, and my knowledge of alchemy isn't too bad, but it helps to have all points explained none-the-less

(09-14-2009 08:28 AM)Raphael Wrote:  But I will need for you to drop some 'cid dude, pass through some doors and visit Jim Morrison and other shamans on the other side:
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2008/12...d-shamans/

Ok, the bit on numbers others can work out the significance to them, and whether they like it. I get what you're doing, but relating numbers like that will just alienate people. We need to keep to more stable things to get a solid foundation.

For this reason, can we skip the Leary bit and move to another part of your ideas that relate to this? As much as I like Leary, he was, as far as I'm aware, discredited by academia as he became a bit of a burnt out old hippy who'd done too much acid. I've glanced at your link, and we can deal with that later/in another conversation. Psychedelic philosophy is not what solid ideas are built upon!

Incidently, why does 5 = circle in the bit you put about Rebis? 3 & 4 are self explanatory.

Sorry I disagree.
The right brain contributes to the leaps of insight.

re: Leary and solid ideas.
DMT forms the 'backbone' of LSD
James Crick used LSD.
Is it a coincidence James Crick envisioned DNA as a double helix?
Is it a coincidence that DMT, the drug the shamans use to 'talk to the plants' comes from a vine that twists?

sorry Zagreus but do you fail to see the poetry revealed?
I see these connections dismissed as coincidences all the time.
In a unified universe there would be connections between nearly everything.
Suggesting what we see is even less than the 1/8th of an iceberg.
Most folks are totally oblivious to the iceberg.
Most folks just never see the reality while they party on...

can 0, 1 and 5 = circle?

0 = O
1 = point
2 = join two points = line
3 = join three points = triangle
4 = join four points = square or cross
5 = join 5 points = pentagram = contains golden ratio = phi = unfolding spiral that will never become a circle .

When I think of phi I think of a golden spiral.
Starts off very asymmetrical...becoming more symmetrical as it gets bigger and bigger expanding into infinity.
Quote:Circled Pentagram

A circle around a pentagram contains and protects. The circle symbolizes eternity and infinity, the cycles of life and nature. The circle touching all 5 points indicates that the spirit, earth, air, water and fire are all connected.

The circled pentagram is the passive form implying spiritual containment of the magic circle, in keeping with the traditional secrecy of witchcraft, and the personal, individual nature of the pagan religious path, of its non-proselytizing character

here is another opinion...
Quote:Everything's a circle. A circle is one circle; a line is two circles; a triangle is three circles; a square is four circles; a star is five or six circles. More than one circle is always one circle (from the circle's point of view). Circles turn into lines turn into triangles turn into squares turn into stars turn into circles forever...
http://www.circular-theory.com/symbols

namaste

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

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09-14-2009, 07:34 PM
Post: #9
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
(09-14-2009 01:47 PM)Raphael Wrote:  Sorry I disagree.
The right brain contributes to the leaps of insight.

re: Leary and solid ideas.
DMT forms the 'backbone' of LSD
James Crick used LSD.
Is it a coincidence James Crick envisioned DNA as a double helix?
Is it a coincidence that DMT, the drug the shamans use to 'talk to the plants' comes from a vine that twists?

I'm not disputing the contribution of the right brain.

I'm also not disputing the significance of someone like Leary, and I'm well aware of the use of hallucinogens by shamans, etc. However, to quote you:

(09-10-2009 05:33 PM)Raphael Wrote:  no problem, I have been working on the problem of making it simple to understand.

Well, please take some friendly advice on how to make it understandable; and one of the ways that is necessary is to keep the early parts within boundaries that everyone can agree on.

(09-14-2009 01:47 PM)Raphael Wrote:  sorry Zagreus but do you fail to see the poetry revealed?
I see these connections dismissed as coincidences all the time.
In a unified universe there would be connections between nearly everything.
Suggesting what we see is even less than the 1/8th of an iceberg.
Most folks are totally oblivious to the iceberg.
Most folks just never see the reality while they party on...

Are you familiar with Plato's Simile of the Cave?

Also, thanks for info on 5 = circle. I'll have a think on that.

Now it is here I feel I must make a point, and I hope you understand it, but do not take offence. It is not aimed at your logic, but merely a comment on presentation, and the necessity to have every point in your views as water tight as possible.

Firstly I noticed in another thread you mentioned The DaVinci Code, so I use this as the first example. As we all know, DaVinci Code is based on The Holy Blood & the Holy Grail. The working in Holy Blood is so flawed it is just not usable as a source:

If 'a' is true, then 'b' could be true, therefore 'c' might be true. Taking 'b' as fact, and using the evidence from 'c' we can see that 'd' and 'e' might have happened. Therefore 'd' suggests that Jesus had a child, and 'e' is clearly true that Magdalene moved to France. It's based on ifs, not certainties.

The next example I would give, and who is vastly more guilty of this is David Icke. Take one of his books, such as Children of the Matrix, for instance. He begins by stating 1) a plausible conspiracy, then says 2) something pretty ridiculous, then says 3) something even sillier, but then goes back to 2), which doesn't sound quite as bad as it did before. He then says 4) the world is run by shape shifting lizards, and suddenly 3) seems more plausible as it's not as daft as 3). He also uses largely interenet references.

Now, Icke is clearly suffering from a paranoid psychosis, and didn't help his case in the last documentary I saw of his where at the end he stated he wished people could see the truth, and then took a swig of a super strength lager, making him look like a crazy park bench drunk.

Raphael, I am not suggesting this is what you are doing. I can see how you're working your ideas through, and my interest in esoteric thought, the occult, and hallucinogens means you are not going to surprise me or lose me; I am trying to get you to explain them in a way so that every detail can withstand criticism. These references to numbers are triggering ideas in YOUR head, but on paper (internet) are not conclusive enough to convince others. That is what I'd like to help you with, if you are willing; to ensure what you are saying stands up philosophically, theologically, anthropologically, etc. Otherwise you fall foul of the traps I've outlined.

I mean no offence to you with this - I am interested in the discussion and your ideas, but I wanted to make my position clear. I am a sceptic first and foremost.
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09-15-2009, 05:54 AM
Post: #10
RE: 0 - from the beginning.
(09-14-2009 07:34 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  I'm not disputing the contribution of the right brain.

In the end, at the end of the day, all metaphor/parable/archetype addresses the role of the asymmetrical mind and the displaced heart...
IMHO

(09-14-2009 07:34 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  Firstly I noticed in another thread you mentioned The DaVinci Code, so I use this as the first example. As we all know, DaVinci Code is based on The Holy Blood & the Holy Grail. The working in Holy Blood is so flawed it is just not usable as a source:

I do not take anything that Dan the man says as gospel.
The only speculation that I agree with re: The Da Vinci Code, is that the feminine sacred had been veiled.
As I always point out to the bible thumpers that their HIS-story sermons are quite often lacking any references to the HER-story that took place thousands of years before...

And though the Da Vinci Code begins with a murder and a first clue, aka the Fibonacci sequence, it is obvious that Dan the man does NOT know what I know about the Fibonacci code found on CARD X, and also the reference to it found in the 5th Gospel of Thomas, and its ultimate role, as the golden spiral or form, in shaping our destiny.
The golden spiral can also be represented as a sine wave.
I believe this frequency/sine wave is our fate already prescribed, AND free will implies we get to ride the wave.
Most of us make back to shore.

(09-14-2009 07:34 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  If 'a' is true, then 'b' could be true, therefore 'c' might be true. Taking 'b' as fact, and using the evidence from 'c' we can see that 'd' and 'e' might have happened. Therefore 'd' suggests that Jesus had a child, and 'e' is clearly true that Magdalene moved to France. It's based on ifs, not certainties.

I agree, however....sometimes a good book lays to rest ole' ideas emanating from the LEFT side of our brains.
And yes some of us 'appear' unbalanced.
Who are we to judge, standing on the outside?

(09-14-2009 07:34 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  Now, Icke is clearly suffering from a paranoid psychosis, and didn't help his case in the last documentary I saw of his where at the end he stated he wished people could see the truth, and then took a swig of a super strength lager, making him look like a crazy park bench drunk.

Clearly?
I prefer reefer when hanging around the park, smelling the Rosicrucian roses.
Wink
I also joined Icke's forum to test my park bench theories.
I am currently 'debating' with some Freemasons on that site... Sad

(09-14-2009 07:34 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  Raphael, I am not suggesting this is what you are doing. I can see how you're working your ideas through, and my interest in esoteric thought, the occult, and hallucinogens means you are not going to surprise me or lose me; I am trying to get you to explain them in a way so that every detail can withstand criticism. These references to numbers are triggering ideas in YOUR head, but on paper (internet) are not conclusive enough to convince others. That is what I'd like to help you with, if you are willing; to ensure what you are saying stands up philosophically, theologically, anthropologically, etc. Otherwise you fall foul of the traps I've outlined.

I mean no offence to you with this - I am interested in the discussion and your ideas, but I wanted to make my position clear. I am a sceptic first and foremost.

I appreciate all of the above.
Other fellas smarter than you and me, would suggest you and me are wasting our time discussing the esoteric, the occult, the arcane and the metaphysical.

[Image: a_whole_new_mind.jpg]
To those folks who appear stuck to me, blind to the obvious?, I suggest they read the following book.
A Whole New Mind: Why Right-brainers Will Rule the Future
http://books.google.ca/books?id=3Xb_MDJQ...q=&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Whole_New_Mind

They are in for a big surprise.
They will soon realize that I am a harbinger of the future.
Fellas like paradoxical parousia might live long enough to see 'his kind' being slowly exterminated, as humanity seeks to define balance.

namaste

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

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