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1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
09-27-2013, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2013 12:10 PM by Azrael17.)
Post: #1
1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
We hear it said a lot by Conservative Christians that there are no examples of bisexual or gay relationships in the Bible between people whom God showed favor on.

However some one at my college as I was having a debate pointed us toward 1st & 2nd Samuel and claimed that David and Jonathan where lovers.

I personally don't believe it's a sin, because if it's between two consenting adults it isn't harming any one, and in my beliefs sins are actions which cause harm. That's what we where debating about, the nature of sin.

The verses she used to support her belief where the following:
"After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return home to his family. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." - 1 Samuel 18:1-4

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women." - 2 Samuel 1:26

Personally the first one didn't convince me,
but the second one made me consider her belief might be accurate.

So do you believe that David and Jonathan had a romantic relationship? Why or Why Not?

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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09-27-2013, 12:44 PM
Post: #2
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
If it was romantic, it did not reach sexual degrees. One in spirit, says the scripture, rather than one in flesh, which is the union of even a man and a prostitute, as Paul says. Yet in union with Christ we achieve oneness in spirit with him, says Paul also.

What do I see here? Two men who had such great agape love for each other it transcended romantic love that would have turned to sex. David loved women and so did Jonathan if I remember correctly. Socrates, or rather Plato's dialogues with Socrates as a character, discuss "Uranian love" and how it transcends "Mundane love" and is asexual but of a higher nature than romantic love. I believe that Jonathan and David may have achieved the kind of love Jesus Christ has for each one of us, but they for one another. And this is an ideal God wants all the elect to engage in with one another. But the sensual man may not realize such transcendent power of love really can exist and attribute homosexual actions to David and Jonathan.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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09-27-2013, 12:55 PM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2013 12:57 PM by Yefet.)
Post: #3
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
This goes back to having a basic understanding of Hebrew thought and certainly can be misunderstood
There is something (trying not to use Yiddish or Hebrew) called the flow of Shefa and is what this is about
and a simple understanding of Jewish Kabbalah clears it right up
the flow of Shefa is comparable to human sex and emotions (male gives to female) the key to this is understanding the first three letters of Jonathan's name are Yud-Heh-Vav, the exact first three letters of the Tetragramaton but the last three literally means he gave
What this is saying is that Tiferet receives its royal (Jewish for wisdom) influence of Binah, or understanding and Jonathan knew this because Love in Hebrew is equivalence of form in other words self-annihilation and so he embraced his destiny so to speak with love and made a covenant with Davod , he gave him his royal influence by giving him his coat, his sword, bow and belt in Hebrew that means his symbols of royalty (each has a meaning in Hebrew thought) it had nothing to do with physical love
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09-27-2013, 03:03 PM
Post: #4
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
There is no romantic relationship at all, see this is the word of men in the Bible.

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09-27-2013, 06:28 PM
Post: #5
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
What I think, is that it is not made clear for many reasons. This is where I like something that i have seen Azrael say a few times, that I really like what he says. You are suppose to read it all, question it all, get rid of the bad, and keep the good. Like it was done on purpose. Which is good advice, even if it was not done on purpose.

If everyone was thinking the same thing, then no one would be thinking at all.
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09-27-2013, 06:30 PM
Post: #6
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
Quote:David loved women and so did Jonathan if I remember correctly.
That is not a valid argument. They could have been bisexual.
But it is a weak theory, and I doubt that the ancient Hebrews, who essentially invented homophobia, would have put a bisexual hero in their book.
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02-07-2017, 10:17 PM
Post: #7
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
No, the accounts do not reflect any sexual relationship. Their "love" was an intense brotherly love. The Greeks used four different words to exemplify different types of love that humans can feel. Compare John 20:2.
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02-08-2017, 07:55 PM
Post: #8
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
(09-27-2013 12:09 PM)Azrael17 Wrote:  We hear it said a lot by Conservative Christians that there are no examples of bisexual or gay relationships in the Bible between people whom God showed favor on.

However some one at my college as I was having a debate pointed us toward 1st & 2nd Samuel and claimed that David and Jonathan where lovers.

I personally don't believe it's a sin, because if it's between two consenting adults it isn't harming any one, and in my beliefs sins are actions which cause harm. That's what we where debating about, the nature of sin.

The verses she used to support her belief where the following:
"After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return home to his family. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." - 1 Samuel 18:1-4

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women." - 2 Samuel 1:26

Personally the first one didn't convince me,
but the second one made me consider her belief might be accurate.

So do you believe that David and Jonathan had a romantic relationship? Why or Why Not?

I don't think it was a romantic relationship. There isn't enough evidence to support the theory. People often say that they love their friends, but don't mean it in a romantic or sexual way. I think this is just a deep brotherly love between friends.
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02-09-2017, 10:44 PM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 10:49 PM by captainbryce.)
Post: #9
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
(02-08-2017 07:55 PM)Allaby Wrote:  
(09-27-2013 12:09 PM)Azrael17 Wrote:  We hear it said a lot by Conservative Christians that there are no examples of bisexual or gay relationships in the Bible between people whom God showed favor on.

However some one at my college as I was having a debate pointed us toward 1st & 2nd Samuel and claimed that David and Jonathan where lovers.

I personally don't believe it's a sin, because if it's between two consenting adults it isn't harming any one, and in my beliefs sins are actions which cause harm. That's what we where debating about, the nature of sin.

The verses she used to support her belief where the following:
"After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return home to his family. And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." - 1 Samuel 18:1-4

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women." - 2 Samuel 1:26

Personally the first one didn't convince me,
but the second one made me consider her belief might be accurate.

So do you believe that David and Jonathan had a romantic relationship? Why or Why Not?

I don't think it was a romantic relationship. There isn't enough evidence to support the theory. People often say that they love their friends, but don't mean it in a romantic or sexual way. I think this is just a deep brotherly love between friends.

I think the fact that David specifically compares the love of Jonathan as superior to that of any "woman" (not man, or person), is proof bar none that it could only have been talking about romantic and/or sexual love. If it was intended to imply any other kind of "love", then there would have been no reason to make that particular comparison. If it was platonic love or brotherly love for example, then David would have said "Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of MAN". Making the comparison between Jonathan and a woman can only imply a romantic or sexual relationship. Women would not be used as an example of platonic love in a male centric culture, with male centric writing, and at no other point in the bible are verses written that way. At the very least, he would have used a gender neutral term like people or "mankind".

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02-09-2017, 11:36 PM
Post: #10
RE: 1st & 2nd Samuel: Where David and Jonathan Gay?
Considering that God's Word says that men laying with men or women lying with other women the way man and woman are meant to 'be together' is an abomination to Him -- that He hates it, would indicate that the relationship between David and Jonathon was Not 'gay' in nature.

Society has a way of assuming that close feelings between two people Probably has a sexual component. However, people of either sex Can have a close Platonic friendship. A person doesn't 'love' their Grandma the same way they 'love' their husband or wife or child or chocolate ice cream or their puppy dog. And Love can be expressed in Many ways -- physical is but one. And sometimes 'love' is shown More by Refraining From than giving in To.
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