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A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
08-03-2013, 11:09 PM
Post: #1
A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
Okay, I wasn't sure where to put this because it addresses a lot but this seemed appropriate.

I have seen a lot of conjecture and confusion on the relation of Philosophy Science and Religion. I am not going to do whatt I did in my last topic; post definitions. Argue it later if you want, because I care little. My oppinion of this is not likely, though not impssible mind you, to be changed.

I have seen it said by Fossilgirl and others in posts both old and recent that Science is a religion. Perhaps none put it so bluntly but that is what it boils down to. I have explained my vew many times on why this is not true. But it recently came to me why there is such a confusion in this. The two seem to try the same thing and feud with one another as they do so. They are like siblings in constant rivalry with one another, and this is why: they are.

What then is the parent of the two? Philosophy. Philosophy has also by some said to be a form of religion. That is when the idea struck me. Philosophy is a very broad term, while Science and Religion are less broad. But, they all try to do the same thing.

Here is what Philosophy asks and tries to answer:
What is reality?
Why is it reality?
What is the nature of man?
What is the Universe?
What is in the Universe?
Where did it all come from?
Is there order?
Are we part of that order or contradictory?
What is Morality?
What is Knowledge?
And so many more questions.
Does it seem familiar? It is. Science askes much of the same questions. Religion asks all of them. Where are they different? How they tackle the questions.

Science relies mainly on Empiricle methods. It asks, therfore, only questions it feels empirically answerable. Hence, it asks not "what is morality" or "what is knowledge" or "what is the purpose of life." It doesn't care.

Then there is religion. Religion relies mainly on Mystical methods. Therefor, it will ask every single question one and the same as Philosophy. It can do so because, like Philosophy, it does not require that anything be seen smelled touched et al. Where it differs is that it is Mystical. It relies on concepts like (not necessarily) god, divine, soul, pirit, afterlife, chi, montre, braman et cetra. It relies on the belief in something higher or beyond human life.

Having examined these three concepts (inadiqately, I may add. Hard to get it all in a single post.) I feel confident in giving what I see as the hierarchy and difference of these three family members. Philosophy is the parent of all knowledge and wisdom (metaphorically). Two of its children are Science and Religion. These two siblings have very different vews and rival with one another, while Philosophy tries yet again to reconcile them.

Really, Science is a false name and so is Religion. Both are from Philosophy and ought to carry it's name. I would, advisedly and in my own oppinion, call "Science" Empirical Philosophy and "Religion" Mystical Philosophy. These two names much better put into perspective the true nature of the three words.

Now that my midnight ramble is over, I beg and urge you to give me your comments on my thoughts. Especially if I have done nothing anyone thinks new, I would very much hope this is common opinion.

Ištu dumqim amqut, u anaku anmiq
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08-04-2013, 01:56 AM
Post: #2
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
Philosophy = persuasions, belief-systems, etc.

So of course both accepted science and religious faiths are "philosophies".

There was a time when "science" was called "natural philosophy". Even though we have a new name for it...it will always be "natural philosophy" (:

I think you are correct, though I have nothing against the names "science" and "religion". The problem is people today often are either hardcore-dogmatic Physicalists relying on empirical-based dogmatism, or they are dogmatists of the revealed religion camp, accepting anecdotes (i.e. the Bible) as dogma without any evidence, even personal spiritual evidence (at least there should be that!), and both camps can be very extreme and unwavering and...militant.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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08-04-2013, 07:46 AM
Post: #3
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
I had a feeling that I spent a long time rambling about commonplace knowledge Tongue

I have one slight disagreement with you though. It is only the aim of individual Philosophies/Philosophers to persuade. Philosophy is an attempt to find answers. The same way Scientists and individual theories may try to persuade, but the actual aim is to answer questions and both will discard wrong claims.

Could you define belief system? I have seen people call Philosophy and even Science that and it boggles me. I can see the "Belief" part, but how is it a "Sytem" if it constantly changes?

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08-04-2013, 08:45 AM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2013 08:46 AM by shiverleaf15.)
Post: #4
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
There is a systematic approach to science (it's called the scientific method). Hence it's a belief system.

Don't think that religions are static either. Theologians for example come up with new conclusions and ways of looking at things all the time, within the parameters of a belief system. As with science, eventually religions also develop modifications in their understanding of "the truth" and what not.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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08-04-2013, 09:07 AM
Post: #5
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
The scientific method is not a belief system. You could argue for a secular belief system structured around the application of the scientific method as the most effective way of gaining and verifying knowledge, but the method itself is no such thing.
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08-04-2013, 09:19 AM
Post: #6
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
Pretty much everything is a belief in my honest opinion, and the scientific method is a system of structuring a set of beliefs. Very valid beliefs I may add.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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08-04-2013, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2013 09:56 AM by Painkiller.)
Post: #7
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
Sorry Shiver, but I think you're flat out wrong here. Please note that you can have beliefs ABOUT the Scientific Method, or a structured lifestyle based around it, but that it is not itself a "belief system". You could make an argument that in order to have any confidence in scientific data you need to have certain beliefs about the accuracy of empirical data and our ability to observe the Universe (though I'd argue that they function perfectly well as assumptions rather than beliefs) but you can still apply the Scientific Method without those beliefs/assumptions. That's the point here - the Scientific Method is simply an approach to empirical data that exists independently of what beliefs you hold. Belief systems can be built around it, of course, but they're secondary to the method itself.
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08-04-2013, 10:20 AM
Post: #8
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
The scientific method isn't a belief system, science is, however, and the approach is the scientific method, but it's very much systematic, it's methodical isn't it?

In my opinion, all scientific conclusions are beliefs, and in fact, almost everything is a belief for me...except that which is experienced. Interpretations of experiences are beliefs, and all beliefs are based on persuasion, and persuasions tend to be based on some sort of rationalism, and the scientific method is what is behind all scientific conclusions, as well as Occam's razor and so forth.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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08-04-2013, 10:38 AM
Post: #9
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
If you're going to get into a discussion of epistimology, then we need to establish what specific terms mean to get any further, otherwise we've got moving goal posts and talking past each other.

What is knowledge?
What is belief?
What is true?

We are lightning, straying from the thunder; miracles of ancient wonder.
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08-04-2013, 10:51 AM
Post: #10
RE: A Family in Shatters: Philosophy Science and Religion
Fair enough, I like your suggestion.

Here's what I think:

That which is true is that which "is", in-of-itself.

Knowledge is acquaintance with anything that "is", and it is not by description, but by personal acquaintance. When you see the color red, you "know" redness. That's true knowledge, in my opinion, but anything other than knowledge by acquaintance is belief, conclusion, opinion, persuasion.

I believe that while it is possible to have a belief that is "true", it is impossible to "know" that your belief is true. Unless, of course, we can come into acquaintance with all that is "true", through experience. This would have to be called omniscience however...

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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