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According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
07-31-2017, 01:48 AM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2017 04:14 AM by Eloh.)
Post: #61
RE: According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
(07-31-2017 12:21 AM)sonofason Wrote:  
(07-30-2017 11:50 PM)Eloh Wrote:  
(07-30-2017 06:30 PM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Revelation 20:15 doesn't say or even imply that There is no getting out of the lake of fire and into the heavens.

On the contrary, I showed very clear quotes from Revelation that:
    The devil and his angels will be in the fiery lake forever
    Those whose names are not in the book of life will go into that same fiery lake
    Those whose names are not in the book of life will never be allowed to enter heaven
Do I really have to repeat all of those quotes? Will you read them this time and address them or just ignore them again?

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Thalassa, Thanatos and Hades are greek versions of Canaanite Deities which as demonized by the Jews: Yam, Mot, and Sheol.
Sheol is the name of both the realm of the Dead and the Goddess of Dead, much like the Nordic Goddess Hel.

The writers of the NT did not believe in any Canaanite Deities. This has nothing to do with anything here.

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Also why must El Elyon be eternal?
El Elyon said, "You all are Great Gods, for you are sons of Most High, yet shall you die like Adam, and fall as but only princes."
El Elyon mocking his own divine sons, for letting their own godhood go to their heads, in Canaanite Mythology Adam was a vain God, for He was a son of El, and He died.

How about because this is the Christianity section of the Religions of the World forum where arguing against the religion in question is not allowed. In Christianity, as in all the Abrahamic faiths, God is eternal. Canaanite mythology is irrelevant to the discussion, which as you may recall is about whether the NT says that hell is eternal. Eonian and into the eon and definitely into the eons of the eons, all mean forever.

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Also the Apocalypse of St John of Patmos contradicts the nature of a wholly good God, unless it is only a story to help Christian stay strong, it use symbolism that is lost in translation.

If the fire purifies you, your guilt would start to torment you, it is similar to Catholic ideas of Purgatory, also in an apocalypse attributed to St Peter, El is said to save all sinners in at end.

The Catholic Church believes in Purgatory, which is temporary, but also believes in an eternal hell. I am not going to argue whether an eternal hell is compatible with a wholly good God. I am only concerned with whether the NT states that hell is eternal.

Here is what the Catholic church has to say about the issue of a wholly good God and an eternal hell. As I just said, I am not going to defend it.

Quote: God is not only infinitely good, He is infinitely wise, just, and holy.

No one is cast into hell unless he has fully and entirely deserved it.

The sinner perseveres forever in his evil disposition.

We must not consider the eternal punishment of hell as a series of separate of distinct terms of punishment, as if God were forever again and again pronouncing a new sentence and inflicting new penalties, and as if He could never satisfy His desire of vengeance. Hell is, especially in the eyes of God, one and indivisible in its entirety; it is but one sentence and one penalty. We may represent to ourselves a punishment of indescribable intensity as in a certain sense the equivalent of an eternal punishment; this may help us to see better how God permits the sinner to fall into hell — how a man who sets at naught all Divine warnings, who fails to profit by all the patient forbearance God has shown him, and who in wanton disobedience is absolutely bent on rushing into eternal punishment, can be finally permitted by God's just indignation to fall into hell.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  kolasis - chastisement, punishment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

"Son of mankind, these men set their thoughts upon their heart, [so now] punishment of the wrongness is openly set before them: If they consult [me] should I answer? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, This says the Lord to man, a man of the house of Israel that sets up his own thoughts in his heart, puts the punishment of his iniquity openly before him, and comes to the poet; I the LORD will question him that comes according to the multitude of his thoughts;" - Ezekiel 14:3-4

"For anyone of the house of Israel or of the outsiders who stay in Israel who separates himself from me, sets up his own thoughts in his heart, puts the punishment of his iniquity openly before him, when he comes to the poet, I the LORD question of him, him will be brought to answer." - Ezekiel 14:7

Here is a translation of the Septuagint, which is what Matthew used. I am including Ezekiel 14:1-8 to establish context. The verses I previously provided were only those that included the word kolasis.

The ἐνθυμήματα that is left untranslated in the interlinear in the Septuagint translation literally means thought but in the context of the expression it refers to idols as in the English translation. Douay Rheims renders the phrase as “placed their uncleannesses in their hearts”. Verse 8 makes it plain that God is going to punish them for their idolatry.

Quote:Ezekiel 14 Septuagint
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel to me, and sat before me.
2 The word of Yahweh came to me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have taken their idols into their heart, and put the stumbling block of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak to them, and tell them, Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Every man of the house of Israel who takes his idols into his heart, and puts the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and comes to the prophet; I Yahweh will answer him therein according to the multitude of his idols;
5 that I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore tell the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Return, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For everyone of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who live in Israel, who separates himself from me, and takes his idols into his heart, and puts the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and comes to the prophet to inquire for himself of me; I Yahweh will answer him by myself:
8 and I will set my face against that man, and will make him an astonishment, for a sign and a proverb, and [I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and you shall know that I am Yahweh.

Here are the NIV, KJV and YLT translations for comparison. No essential difference from the Septuagint translation, including the reference to idols.

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  "And being inflamed to anger, he commanded Andronicus to be stripped of his purple, and to be led about through all the city: and that in the same place wherein he had committed the impiety against Onias, the cursed man was deprived of his life, the Lord gave him his deserved punishment." - 2 Maccabees 4:38

Deprived of life can symbolically mean deprived of his purpose, life is meaningless without a purpose, so he would need to find a new purpose, but also in many ancient cultures losing your name was losing your life, so God could have given Onias amnesia.

Here is a translation from the Septuagint, as previously linked.

Quote:2 Maccabees 4
37 Therefore Antiochus was heartily sorry, and moved to pity, and wept, because of the sober and modest behaviour of him that was dead.
38 And being kindled with anger, forthwith he took away Andronicus his purple, and rent off his clothes, and leading him through the whole city unto that very place, where he had committed impiety against Onias, there slew he the cursed murderer. Thus the Lord rewarded him his punishment, as he had deserved.

God did not give Andronicus (NOT Onias who was previously murdered but Andronicus who committed the murder) amnesia. Antiochus killed Andronicus for killing Onias. Andronicus was punished as he deserved for having committed the murder of Onias who did not deserve such a fate. The Lord authorized this.
Many Canaanite Deities were demonized by the so they would have known about them. And also assume that they didn't know the names of the gods of the nearby peoples? El Elyon was not original the Israelite Deity but rather a Canaanite God.

Even YHWH Elohim(Alhym) might not be a Hebrew name but rather an Ugaritic name. Note: Yhwh and Alhym both have two vowels.
Y and W in Yhwh, as well as A and Y in Alhym.
Yhwh can be said as Ihu as the last H can be silent. Alhym is another form of Elim, the Elim are Canaanite Gods.
The word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.

I haven't had much time to study the Catholic Bible, so I am sorry for my error.

Why are you using English letters to decipher the name of the God of the Hebrew people. Don't you think they spoke Hebrew? There were no L's and H's and W's

י = Y/I
ה = H
ו = W/U/V/O
ה = H
אלהים = Alhym
א = A/E/’
ל = L
ה = H
י = Y
ם = M
It is called transliteration.
ע = A/E/’/P
אל עליון = El Elyon
El Elyon is a Canaanite Deity
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07-31-2017, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2017 02:46 PM by Imprecise Interrupt.)
Post: #62
RE: According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
@Eloh

Canaanite deities are not at all related to the NT. If you want to talk about Canaanite deities do not do so in the Christianity ROTW forum.


I see you are no longer responding to me in a meaningful way. Too bad.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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07-31-2017, 01:03 PM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2017 01:24 PM by Eloh.)
Post: #63
RE: According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
(07-31-2017 08:42 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  @Eloh

Canaanite deities are not at all related to the NT. If you want to talk about Canaanite deities do not do so in the Christianity ROTW forum.

Why am I using English letters? I am not using them. The English translations I am quoting are. Rolleyes

I see you are no longer responding to me in a meaningful way. Too bad.
And I am sorry about my last post I was tired, but I couldn't sleep, so I tried to make sense while half-"dead"

Study what "Demons"(Daimones Ancient Greek noun, meaning lesser deities) and impure spirits alike called Jesus.
the following are only of demons
Most Translations of Mark 1:24 read "thou art the Holy One of God" but in Hebrew the word one would have been unused, because the title most likely used would have been "El (Ha)Kodesh", but it could have been "El (Ha)Kadesh".
Kodesh is one of the very few Hebrew neuter words, and El Kodesh reads in English as Holy God, but El Kadesh means Saintly God.
from Luke 8:28, "Son of God Most High"/"Son of the God of the highest", in Greek is "υιε του θεου του υψιστου" but in Hebrew "Ben El Elyon".

The Demons know Jesus, but not all lesser gods were cowardly before him, the Devil was not, and Jesus calls the Devil "the Father of the Jews", but Yahweh is the Father of Jews.

If Yahweh was God why were there so many lesser gods hiding in his holy-places?
Why is Jesus a loving person but Yahweh is a God of War?
Why was Yahweh so cold-hearted?
Why is Yahweh so Hypocritical?
Yahweh is the divider of saints and Jesus is the divider of evil.
Jesus is Love but Yahweh is Jealous.
Jealous causes hearts to grow as cold as ice.
Yahweh "the devil" was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
"I, even I, am Yahweh; and none but me can save." - Isaiah 43:11
Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore Adonai himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his title among us, El." - Isaiah 7:14
Adonai plural but call him because of the singular of unity which is in opposition to idea of the plural of majesty.
The Gods are united.
Jesus is not Yahweh, nor of Yahweh.
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07-31-2017, 01:30 PM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2017 01:32 PM by Imprecise Interrupt.)
Post: #64
RE: According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
@Eloh

All totally irrelevant to the present subject and inappropriate for this forum. If this is what you want to talk about, start a thread in a different non-ROTW forum.

Can I presume that you have no more to say about the eternal hell question?


And I suggest you read the entirety of John 8 from v12 on before making claims about what Jesus said. Context is essential to understanding.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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08-01-2017, 08:06 PM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2017 08:06 PM by sonofason.)
Post: #65
RE: According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
(07-31-2017 01:48 AM)Eloh Wrote:  
(07-31-2017 12:21 AM)sonofason Wrote:  
(07-30-2017 11:50 PM)Eloh Wrote:  
(07-30-2017 06:30 PM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Revelation 20:15 doesn't say or even imply that There is no getting out of the lake of fire and into the heavens.

On the contrary, I showed very clear quotes from Revelation that:
    The devil and his angels will be in the fiery lake forever
    Those whose names are not in the book of life will go into that same fiery lake
    Those whose names are not in the book of life will never be allowed to enter heaven
Do I really have to repeat all of those quotes? Will you read them this time and address them or just ignore them again?

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Thalassa, Thanatos and Hades are greek versions of Canaanite Deities which as demonized by the Jews: Yam, Mot, and Sheol.
Sheol is the name of both the realm of the Dead and the Goddess of Dead, much like the Nordic Goddess Hel.

The writers of the NT did not believe in any Canaanite Deities. This has nothing to do with anything here.

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Also why must El Elyon be eternal?
El Elyon said, "You all are Great Gods, for you are sons of Most High, yet shall you die like Adam, and fall as but only princes."
El Elyon mocking his own divine sons, for letting their own godhood go to their heads, in Canaanite Mythology Adam was a vain God, for He was a son of El, and He died.

How about because this is the Christianity section of the Religions of the World forum where arguing against the religion in question is not allowed. In Christianity, as in all the Abrahamic faiths, God is eternal. Canaanite mythology is irrelevant to the discussion, which as you may recall is about whether the NT says that hell is eternal. Eonian and into the eon and definitely into the eons of the eons, all mean forever.

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Also the Apocalypse of St John of Patmos contradicts the nature of a wholly good God, unless it is only a story to help Christian stay strong, it use symbolism that is lost in translation.

If the fire purifies you, your guilt would start to torment you, it is similar to Catholic ideas of Purgatory, also in an apocalypse attributed to St Peter, El is said to save all sinners in at end.

The Catholic Church believes in Purgatory, which is temporary, but also believes in an eternal hell. I am not going to argue whether an eternal hell is compatible with a wholly good God. I am only concerned with whether the NT states that hell is eternal.

Here is what the Catholic church has to say about the issue of a wholly good God and an eternal hell. As I just said, I am not going to defend it.

Quote: God is not only infinitely good, He is infinitely wise, just, and holy.

No one is cast into hell unless he has fully and entirely deserved it.

The sinner perseveres forever in his evil disposition.

We must not consider the eternal punishment of hell as a series of separate of distinct terms of punishment, as if God were forever again and again pronouncing a new sentence and inflicting new penalties, and as if He could never satisfy His desire of vengeance. Hell is, especially in the eyes of God, one and indivisible in its entirety; it is but one sentence and one penalty. We may represent to ourselves a punishment of indescribable intensity as in a certain sense the equivalent of an eternal punishment; this may help us to see better how God permits the sinner to fall into hell — how a man who sets at naught all Divine warnings, who fails to profit by all the patient forbearance God has shown him, and who in wanton disobedience is absolutely bent on rushing into eternal punishment, can be finally permitted by God's just indignation to fall into hell.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  kolasis - chastisement, punishment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

"Son of mankind, these men set their thoughts upon their heart, [so now] punishment of the wrongness is openly set before them: If they consult [me] should I answer? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, This says the Lord to man, a man of the house of Israel that sets up his own thoughts in his heart, puts the punishment of his iniquity openly before him, and comes to the poet; I the LORD will question him that comes according to the multitude of his thoughts;" - Ezekiel 14:3-4

"For anyone of the house of Israel or of the outsiders who stay in Israel who separates himself from me, sets up his own thoughts in his heart, puts the punishment of his iniquity openly before him, when he comes to the poet, I the LORD question of him, him will be brought to answer." - Ezekiel 14:7

Here is a translation of the Septuagint, which is what Matthew used. I am including Ezekiel 14:1-8 to establish context. The verses I previously provided were only those that included the word kolasis.

The ἐνθυμήματα that is left untranslated in the interlinear in the Septuagint translation literally means thought but in the context of the expression it refers to idols as in the English translation. Douay Rheims renders the phrase as “placed their uncleannesses in their hearts”. Verse 8 makes it plain that God is going to punish them for their idolatry.

Quote:Ezekiel 14 Septuagint
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel to me, and sat before me.
2 The word of Yahweh came to me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have taken their idols into their heart, and put the stumbling block of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak to them, and tell them, Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Every man of the house of Israel who takes his idols into his heart, and puts the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and comes to the prophet; I Yahweh will answer him therein according to the multitude of his idols;
5 that I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
6 Therefore tell the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Return, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For everyone of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who live in Israel, who separates himself from me, and takes his idols into his heart, and puts the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and comes to the prophet to inquire for himself of me; I Yahweh will answer him by myself:
8 and I will set my face against that man, and will make him an astonishment, for a sign and a proverb, and [I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and you shall know that I am Yahweh.

Here are the NIV, KJV and YLT translations for comparison. No essential difference from the Septuagint translation, including the reference to idols.

(07-29-2017 07:39 PM)Eloh Wrote:  "And being inflamed to anger, he commanded Andronicus to be stripped of his purple, and to be led about through all the city: and that in the same place wherein he had committed the impiety against Onias, the cursed man was deprived of his life, the Lord gave him his deserved punishment." - 2 Maccabees 4:38

Deprived of life can symbolically mean deprived of his purpose, life is meaningless without a purpose, so he would need to find a new purpose, but also in many ancient cultures losing your name was losing your life, so God could have given Onias amnesia.

Here is a translation from the Septuagint, as previously linked.

Quote:2 Maccabees 4
37 Therefore Antiochus was heartily sorry, and moved to pity, and wept, because of the sober and modest behaviour of him that was dead.
38 And being kindled with anger, forthwith he took away Andronicus his purple, and rent off his clothes, and leading him through the whole city unto that very place, where he had committed impiety against Onias, there slew he the cursed murderer. Thus the Lord rewarded him his punishment, as he had deserved.

God did not give Andronicus (NOT Onias who was previously murdered but Andronicus who committed the murder) amnesia. Antiochus killed Andronicus for killing Onias. Andronicus was punished as he deserved for having committed the murder of Onias who did not deserve such a fate. The Lord authorized this.
Many Canaanite Deities were demonized by the so they would have known about them. And also assume that they didn't know the names of the gods of the nearby peoples? El Elyon was not original the Israelite Deity but rather a Canaanite God.

Even YHWH Elohim(Alhym) might not be a Hebrew name but rather an Ugaritic name. Note: Yhwh and Alhym both have two vowels.
Y and W in Yhwh, as well as A and Y in Alhym.
Yhwh can be said as Ihu as the last H can be silent. Alhym is another form of Elim, the Elim are Canaanite Gods.
The word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.

I haven't had much time to study the Catholic Bible, so I am sorry for my error.

Why are you using English letters to decipher the name of the God of the Hebrew people. Don't you think they spoke Hebrew? There were no L's and H's and W's

י = Y/I
ה = H
ו = W/U/V/O
ה = H
אלהים = Alhym
א = A/E/’
ל = L
ה = H
י = Y
ם = M
It is called transliteration.
ע = A/E/’/P
אל עליון = El Elyon
El Elyon is a Canaanite Deity

"El"? There were no vowels in the ancient Hebrew alphabet.
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08-01-2017, 09:55 PM
Post: #66
RE: According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
Eloh Wrote:Most Translations of Mark 1:24 read "thou art the Holy One of God" but in Hebrew the word one would have been unused, because the title most likely used would have been "El (Ha)Kodesh", but it could have been "El (Ha)Kadesh".
Kodesh is one of the very few Hebrew neuter words, and El Kodesh reads in English as Holy God, but El Kadesh means Saintly God.

Wouldn't it be Kodesh Elohim or even Kodesh El, after all Isaiah refers to the "Holy One of Israel", Kodesh Israel. Unless you think that should read "Holy Israel". Then there is Psalm 16:10 and its "Holy One".

Have you got any thoughts on post #45?

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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08-02-2017, 07:32 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017 09:47 AM by Imprecise Interrupt.)
Post: #67
RE: According to Christianism, we all deserve Hell
(07-31-2017 01:03 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Most Translations of Mark 1:24 read "thou art the Holy One of God" but in Hebrew the word one would have been unused, because the title most likely used would have been "El (Ha)Kodesh", but it could have been "El (Ha)Kadesh".
Kodesh is one of the very few Hebrew neuter words, and El Kodesh reads in English as Holy God, but El Kadesh means Saintly God.
from Luke 8:28, "Son of God Most High"/"Son of the God of the highest", in Greek is "υιε του θεου του υψιστου" but in Hebrew "Ben El Elyon"

The word 'one' does not appear in the Greek of Mark 1:24 either. The word translated as 'holy one' is hagios (Strong's G40). It means 'holy'' but is a noun. The 'one' gets added in an English translation because 'holy' by itself would be an adjective without a noun to modify.

The Hebrew equivalent would be qodesh (Strong's H6944). The Hebrew word qadesh (Strong’s H6945) does not mean ‘saintly’. It means a male temple prostitute. However qadash (Strong’s H6942) is a verb meaning ‘to sanctify’. If you want the adjective ‘saintly’ you would use qadowsh (Strong’s H6918). But as you pointed out, the word ’one’ would not have been used in Hebrew. That is, there would have been no noun to modify. ‘God’ would not have been the noun. If you look again at Mark 1:24, the word God appears in a prepositional phrase separate from the noun ‘holy one’.

Mark 1:24 … the holy one of God
ho hagios tou theou


Luke 8 also separates God from the descriptor.

Like 8:28 … son of the God of the highest
This is the literal translation of: hui tou theou tou hipsistou

Notice that there is nothing here that can be correlated with your El Kodesh or El Kadesh

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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