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Adding something to this shiny new section :)
12-13-2008, 02:29 AM
Post: #1
Adding something to this shiny new section :)
Just thought it might be a good idea to clarify agnosticim. To quote wikipedia:

"Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. It is often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism"


Just thought it might be useful
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12-14-2008, 05:06 AM (This post was last modified: 12-14-2008 06:23 AM by JonathanT.)
Post: #2
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
In my opinion, it sounds more like a cop-out than a credible philosophical view.

The idea that something is both impossible to prove AND disprove seems a bit contradictory to me.

edit: sorry if I worded that in a bad way...I'm not trying to sound rude.
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12-14-2008, 10:07 PM
Post: #3
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
JonathanT Wrote:In my opinion, it sounds more like a cop-out than a credible philosophical view.

The idea that something is both impossible to prove AND disprove seems a bit contradictory to me.

edit: sorry if I worded that in a bad way...I'm not trying to sound rude.


Aye, agnostics tend to get it bad from both atheists and religious-types.


Atheists aren't happy cos we won't agree with 'em, and religious types are never happy to hear that someone doesn't think the God they believe in is plauisble.

Wikipedia doesn't really support my own personal views. I'm more of the type that believes that if God does exist, he's quite probably impossible to comprehend. I mean, let's be serious here. The human mind is powerful, yes, but powerful enough to comprehend anything that is the cause of the Universe?

God could exist, sure, but I ain't gonna lose sleep about whether or not he does. Not to mention what form he could take.
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12-15-2008, 01:18 AM
Post: #4
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
Mr_Redneck Wrote:Atheists aren't happy cos we won't agree with 'em, and religious types are never happy to hear that someone doesn't think the God they believe in is plauisble.

I don't really think it's a cop-out, but the problem I would think with agnosticism is most just throw up their hands and say "It's impossible to know!" Because it is very taxing to learn one way or the other. But...

Quote:God could exist, sure, but I ain't gonna lose sleep about whether or not he does. Not to mention what form he could take.

... it is very important to know. Maybe you're not interested in the topic of religion, but we're talking about eternity here. If you're right about there not being a god then you have nothing to worry about because you haven't lost anything. You just don't exist anymore. But if there is a god and you don't believe in him, most likely you'll end up somewhere you don't want to be. Forever. If I was agnostic or atheist, I'd still be tempted to at flip a coin and pick a religion. If you're wrong, you're no worse off than not having a religion, but if you are right then you won't spend an eternity in hell.

He probably does exist because according to science the universe is finite. Anything finite had to have a cause. And that cause probably had to be infinite.

Quote:Wikipedia doesn't really support my own personal views. I'm more of the type that believes that if God does exist, he's quite probably impossible to comprehend. I mean, let's be serious here. The human mind is powerful, yes, but powerful enough to comprehend anything that is the cause of the Universe?

I agree that God IS impossible to comprehend, at least to some extent. Obviously he is greater than we are to have caused us. But we can know of him, maybe not all of him. I mean, we can at least comprehend the idea of God... We're talking about it, aren't we?
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12-15-2008, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 12-15-2008 02:36 PM by damian.hoffman.)
Post: #5
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
JonathanT Wrote:In my opinion, it sounds more like a cop-out than a credible philosophical view.

The idea that something is both impossible to prove AND disprove seems a bit contradictory to me.

edit: sorry if I worded that in a bad way...I'm not trying to sound rude.

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." - Geddy Lee

thereturnofspring Wrote:I don't really think it's a cop-out, but the problem I would think with agnosticism is most just throw up their hands and say "It's impossible to know!" Because it is very taxing to learn one way or the other. But...

That's quite an assumption of character.

thereturnofspring Wrote:If you're right about there not being a god then you have nothing to worry about because you haven't lost anything. You just don't exist anymore. But if there is a god and you don't believe in him, most likely you'll end up somewhere you don't want to be. Forever. If I was agnostic or atheist, I'd still be tempted to at flip a coin and pick a religion. If you're wrong, you're no worse off than not having a religion, but if you are right then you won't spend an eternity in hell.

And what if you pick the wrong one? You're still screwed, and are no better off having a religion than not. There's a lot of belief systems out there...how do you know you've got the right one?

If ignorance is bliss why aren't there more happy people?
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12-15-2008, 04:09 PM
Post: #6
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
damian.hoffman Wrote:
thereturnofspring Wrote:I don't really think it's a cop-out, but the problem I would think with agnosticism is most just throw up their hands and say "It's impossible to know!" Because it is very taxing to learn one way or the other. But...

That's quite an assumption of character.

I don't think I was assuming anyone's character. I was admitting that the act of deciding god/no god/which religion is exhausting. There are many arguments both ways, so you have to learn them. When you learn an argument for god, it's almost certainly been refuted. And then that refutation has probably also been refuted. The more you learn, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. It is much simpler to make a decision and leave it at that rather than actively seeking truth. I didn't mean that agnostics are lazy or ignorant or anything like that. : )

damian.hoffman Wrote:
thereturnofspring Wrote:If you're right about there not being a god then you have nothing to worry about because you haven't lost anything. You just don't exist anymore. But if there is a god and you don't believe in him, most likely you'll end up somewhere you don't want to be. Forever. If I was agnostic or atheist, I'd still be tempted to at flip a coin and pick a religion. If you're wrong, you're no worse off than not having a religion, but if you are right then you won't spend an eternity in hell.

And what if you pick the wrong one? You're still screwed, and are no better off having a religion than not. There's a lot of belief systems out there...how do you know you've got the right one?

I was talking about Pascal's Wager: "a person should "wager" as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Although I do believe you can know God and know that he exists, I don't think that our debates will ever reach a conclusive end one way or the other. God exists outside of science and logic, although you can use those to support either point of view you may have. What I mean is you won't be able to prove it but you can know through personal experience. And I understand a lot of people don't accept that as evidence, they certainly have that right and for good reason.
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12-16-2008, 06:57 AM (This post was last modified: 12-16-2008 06:58 AM by Mr_Redneck.)
Post: #7
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
damian.hoffman Wrote:And what if you pick the wrong one? You're still screwed, and are no better off having a religion than not. There's a lot of belief systems out there...how do you know you've got the right one?





Yep. Who's to say that it's not really the Viking gods that are real and all other Gods are false?
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12-16-2008, 11:44 AM
Post: #8
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
Mr_Redneck Wrote:Yep. Who's to say that it's not really the Viking gods that are real and all other Gods are false?

I always preferred the Greek pantheon myself. A few of them were really hot, and liked to sleep around with mortals. That sex would be truly divine. Big Grin

If ignorance is bliss why aren't there more happy people?
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12-17-2008, 04:13 AM
Post: #9
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
damian.hoffman Wrote:
Mr_Redneck Wrote:Yep. Who's to say that it's not really the Viking gods that are real and all other Gods are false?

I always preferred the Greek pantheon myself. A few of them were really hot, and liked to sleep around with mortals. That sex would be truly divine. Big Grin

Yeah, but according to the Vikings, the earth was created when a son ripped apart his father and made the seas from his blood. That gets +10 badass in my books Big Grin. It always kinda bugs me that most religious individuals refuse to accept other religions. Who really knows? Why should I listen to those who claim to know?
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12-17-2008, 04:22 AM
Post: #10
RE: Adding something to this shiny new section :)
satan just feeds people,s minds with lies,to throw you off the truth.were the incas,cains own.?to make so many false religions,is to try to tell people,none exist.just more clutter.it would be very difficult these days with so many lies,good job God knows .all darkness shall be removed soon enough.

Good evil salvation
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