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Am I lost?
07-21-2013, 08:00 AM
Post: #1
Am I lost?
Hello, I just stumbled upon this forum while doing some reading. I have recently begun to question my church, so any advice, thoughts, commentary would be great.

I think that I've always believed in God, I went to various churches as a kid etc. Recently after the death of my wife's father, she really wanted us to get our kids in church. Her father was visited often at his nursing home by a local church, the preacher of that church spoke at his funeral.

I struck up a dialogue with him after the services and we started to go to his church. At first I was "on fire" for it, I loved going, I felt like his sermons were speaking to me. It is a fundamental baptist church. My wife, myself and three of my children were all "saved" and subsequently baptized. My youngest son, he is four, was not due to his age. I think that may be where I began to question it all.

I have recently stopped attending, and I feel bad, we like the pastor and the members of the church. I believe them to be genuine, good people. What I have a problem with is their doctrine.

For instance, I do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old, I do not believe that an evil evil person can repent upon his death bed and enter heaven, I do not believe that it is right to preach that all over denominations are wrong and will go to hell. I also don't think that God really cares if men wear shorts, or that women wear pants. I don't feel that tithing is giving anything to God, its just giving the local church money.

We recently had a revival week and the guest evangelist basically bashed homosexuality and our government in his sermons. I have a gay brother and my father always told me that he knew from a very early age that my brother was gay. So if you cant be born gay, is my father a liar? Also how is it right for the church to take a political position period?

Thanks for reading, any input is greatly appreciated.
SoulSurfer
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07-21-2013, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 07-21-2013 08:10 AM by MLServant.)
Post: #2
RE: Am I lost?
Your welcome, seek YHWH through the Messiah Yahushua (Jesus) you will find if you properly look. Shalom.
(07-21-2013 08:08 AM)MLServant Wrote:  Your welcome, seek YHWH through the Messiah Yahushua (Jesus) you will find if you properly look. Shalom.

I will be watching on the wall. If you have questions and of course you can PM me and the like. Soon I will have more contact info as they allow here.
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07-21-2013, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 07-21-2013 11:51 AM by Zeta.)
Post: #3
RE: Am I lost?
(07-21-2013 08:00 AM)SoulSurfer32 Wrote:  What I have a problem with is their doctrine.

Nothing wrong with that! In a world where no two people have the exact same information, there’s going to be lots of disagreement

Quote: For instance, I do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old…

What leads you to believe its older?

Quote:…I do not believe that an evil evil person can repent upon his death bed and enter heaven…

Well first, keep in mind the Bible never says we go to heaven as part of an afterlife. It teaches that everything will be resurrected. Its like Daniel 12:2 says: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame…”

Ezekiel describes it well:

Ezekiel 37 1-10 – “The hand of God was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of God and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, ‘Son of man, can these bones live?’

I said, ‘Lord God, you alone know.’

Then he said to me, ‘Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of God! This is what the Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am God.’’

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, ‘Prophesy to their spirits; prophesy, son of man, and say to them, ‘This is what the Lord says: Come, spirits, from the four winds and into these slain, that they may live.’’ So I prophesied as he commanded me, and spirit entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet…”

That said, isn’t it better if someone is cleansed of their sins and can be resurrected to life, and help us improve the resurrected world? That’s better for everyone. Its like Ezekiel 18:23 says – “What joy should I find in the death of a sinner, the Lord God says, when he might have turned back from his evil ways, and found life instead?”

Also, its not like there’d be absolutely no consequences for what they did. Its like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:15, someone like that will be saved, but “only as one escaping through the flames”.

Quote: I do not believe that it is right to preach that all over denominations are wrong and will go to hell. I also don't think that God really cares if men wear shorts, or that women wear pants.

Yeah you’re absolutely right. It says quite clearly in Romans 10:9 that “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Quote: Also how is it right for the church to take a political position period?

Our job is to improve the world. Why would we not use politics, the potent tool it is, to accomplish that? That's how we ended slavery and segregation.
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07-21-2013, 04:51 PM (This post was last modified: 07-21-2013 04:52 PM by Azrael17.)
Post: #4
RE: Am I lost?
SoulSurfer32 Wrote:I have recently stopped attending, and I feel bad, we like the pastor and the members of the church. I believe them to be genuine, good people. What I have a problem with is their doctrine.

For instance, I do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old, I do not believe that an evil evil person can repent upon his death bed and enter heaven, I do not believe that it is right to preach that all over denominations are wrong and will go to hell. I also don't think that God really cares if men wear shorts, or that women wear pants. I don't feel that tithing is giving anything to God, its just giving the local church money.

Azrael Wrote:You do not have to agree with their doctrines to believe in God and the Messiah. Though I would sugest trying to find a church that you feel comfortible in. Personally I do not like Organized Religion and have had bad experiences so I do not belong to a church.
I consider myself a Christian but do not agree with a lot of what main stream Christians believe if you wish to know more about my beliefs you can read my blog on this cite.
God does not care what people chose to look like so long as they do not cause harm to their own bodies.
As far as tithing goes it depends on what that church uses it for, some churches even if they seem dogmatic still provide services for the poor which is commendable yet others try to get in on politics which I believe is wrong.


SoulSurfer32 Wrote:We recently had a revival week and the guest evangelist basically bashed homosexuality and our government in his sermons. I have a gay brother and my father always told me that he knew from a very early age that my brother was gay.
So if you cant be born gay, is my father a liar?

Azrael Wrote:Orientation is some thing Psychologist are still learning about, we can not say for certain if a person is born with their Orientation but they most likely are, as for indicators as to what a person is the only one is what gender/s they are attracted to as some one could be a straight effeminate male, trust me I know some one like that. I believe however that people develop an Orientation which might be based upon Genetic and Social factors yet once this Orientation is set in place it can not be changed and is permanent. I believe that all people are created to be who they are by God and we as Christians should be accepting of them for who they are rather than judging them.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:Also how is it right for the church to take a political position period?

Azrael Wrote:Whether it is right or not Americans believe in freedom of speech as such they have the freedom to get involved in politics even if we might disagree with that course of action.
Churches have used Politics even in ancient times, they would generate lies about their competition in order to make themselves look better and in some cases Churches would carry our hate crimes against members of other Religions. The primary reason the Church spread at first was because of the Wars they raged against peoples who where not Christian.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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07-21-2013, 06:00 PM
Post: #5
RE: Am I lost?
(07-21-2013 08:00 AM)SoulSurfer32 Wrote:  Hello, I just stumbled upon this forum while doing some reading. I have recently begun to question my church, so any advice, thoughts, commentary would be great.

Hi SoulSurfer32, I am glad for the fact you have begun to do some honest questioning when taking part in an Independent Fundamental Baptist church. It shows integrity and open-mindedness. Welcome to the forum (:

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:I think that I've always believed in God, I went to various churches as a kid etc. Recently after the death of my wife's father, she really wanted us to get our kids in church. Her father was visited often at his nursing home by a local church, the preacher of that church spoke at his funeral.

I struck up a dialogue with him after the services and we started to go to his church. At first I was "on fire" for it, I loved going, I felt like his sermons were speaking to me. It is a fundamental baptist church. My wife, myself and three of my children were all "saved" and subsequently baptized. My youngest son, he is four, was not due to his age. I think that may be where I began to question it all.

I believe in God too, and I'm happy for your faith. That you began to question your church's doctrines is not bad.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:I have recently stopped attending, and I feel bad, we like the pastor and the members of the church. I believe them to be genuine, good people. What I have a problem with is their doctrine.

For instance, I do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old

I am a Christian, a Latter-day Saint, and many people in my religion think the Earth is at most 13,000 years old or so. Even that is too short for me. So I disagree, because I feel that the Earth's geological record that evidence its old age, and the record the stars give about our universe's even older age, are valid records on par with the scriptures. Think of them like a "Book of the Generations of the Heavens and the Earth". We can use it alongside the Bible, rather than against the Bible, or the Bible against it.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:I do not believe that an evil evil person can repent upon his death bed and enter heaven

I too do not believe in "Easy Believism" and its corollary "Once saved, always saved". There's many reasons I don't believe in it, but one citation should suffice for now:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:6-9)

I think this passage clearly demonstrates that the New Birth does not end when we but accept Jesus. If anything, it starts there. It ends when God sanctifies us on Earth through his grace and delivers us from our body's fallen nature, after which we become incapable of sin, and achieve Christian perfection by grace.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:I do not believe that it is right to preach that all over denominations are wrong and will go to hell.

Denominations, it is my belief, each have parts of truth, and parts of error. I do not believe from the bottom of my heart that I can maintain integrity with myself and my God of truth if I declare all denominational doctrines and beliefs, which often times contradict, equally "correct".

But do I believe that Methodists and Presbyterians and Catholics and Lutherans will go to hell? No. My religion teaches that very few people will go to hell, and they are people who commit the unforgivable sin. Unrepentant sinners will suffer for their sins before their resurrection but be purified in the end. Keeping God's moral laws saves us from such suffering. The purpose of God's Gospel of faith, repentance, baptism, laying on of hands, and Christian perfection is greater than just saving us from such suffering via keeping the moral laws: its aim is to bring us into mystic union with God himself. That's my belief. I do not sincerely believe that other Christian groups have the ability to bring anyone into mystic union with God, but I do believe my religion has the ways to truly baptize us, bestow the Holy Ghost upon us, etc. But ultimately, the individual and God together achieve mystic union in the end.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:I also don't think that God really cares if men wear shorts, or that women wear pants.

I think it's good to be modest in dress, be we men or women. I don't think it's wrong for women to wear pants or men to wear shorts, but for example, in my Church we are recommended to have shorts that reach to the knee and below, because it's modest. Both men and women can wear shorts. We try to dress in proper attire when attending church meetings, but we do it out of respect for God. I think doing these things is easy, and no big sacrifice. Some Christians are obviously going to be more strict about what men and women should wear or dress like. Think the Amish for example. I think modesty does not need to feel strict and overbearing, it should be simple and easy to do, yet feel right in your heart.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:I don't feel that tithing is giving anything to God, its just giving the local church money.

Early Christianity "fulfilled" the laws of Moses. Under Moses, tithing was required, with a promise of blessings from Heaven for keeping such law. In Jesus, this was "filled full": Christians were not required to pay 10% but 100% of all they owned, and give themselves and their property over to the Church, and then the Church was to redistribute the money and goods so that every Christian had things in common. It was Christian Communalism, kind of like Marxist Communism but God was an important part of it as well as peacefulness as contrasting revolutionary attitudes.

My Church was Communalist in the beginning, but we found it hard to live that way. We were not prepared for such lifestyle yet, of giving up all we had and engage in the redistribution of money and property to have all things in common. God did not require us to keep Communalism anymore and told us to keep the law of tithing instead, but we expect to return back to Communalism some day, it being a higher law than tithing (my Church is guided by revelation and prophets). Money tithed goes to establish the earthly Kingdom of God: we build church buildings and temples, we fund missionary work, we assist the needy in the Church, we publish publications, make websites, publish copies of the scriptures, and so forth. We do not have paid clergy though, so people who serve as bishops for example do not get paid for being bishops.

I think our use of tithing is fair.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:We recently had a revival week and the guest evangelist basically bashed homosexuality and our government in his sermons. I have a gay brother and my father always told me that he knew from a very early age that my brother was gay. So if you cant be born gay, is my father a liar? Also how is it right for the church to take a political position period?

Conservative Christians have been taught, by the scriptures, that it is against God's commands for men to lie with men in bed, or women to do the same with women. However the scriptures never say it is wrong to have homosexual orientation.

I do not believe they were right in thinking the way they did in the 1960s and 1970s and even 1980s about homosexuality being a curable psychological condition, but I don't think they had bad intentions, and were influenced by people who actually thought homosexual orientation was a curable abnormality. We know better now in the 2010s. To think homosexuality can still be "cured" today is a little silly, so I don't support Christians who teach it as the one and only truth.

I personally still think that what the Bible says has not changed. It is politically incorrect to say it is "sin" for men and men to lie down together or women and women...but the Bible says the same about men and women lying down together when it is not within the confines of marriage too.

But I believe gays are not sinners for merely being gay. And I have known great gay people who are better examples of human decency than some of the most conservative of Christians.

For one, bashing gays is morally wrong in my opinion. I respect their right to get married. I support their desire to get married. This does not mean I am changing my beliefs about the Bible though, but who am I to force people to obey my Church's teachings? If they wish to submit, they can do it willingly, but I defend their right to do whatever they wish in their pursuit of happiness as long as they allow me to do the same.

SoulSurfer32 Wrote:Thanks for reading, any input is greatly appreciated.
SoulSurfer

I hope I was of help. In the end, you must seek to know truth for yourself and be confident in the fact that you shall find truth if you put your trust in the God of revelation. I recommend checking our James 1:5-6. God bless (:

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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07-22-2013, 04:29 PM
Post: #6
RE: Am I lost?
just keep questioning things allow you reason to lead you to the answer. read books on the subject from multiple points of view. Read what Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, pagans, Satanists, nihilists, Jehovah witness and any other group you can think of say in answer to your questions then decide for yourself. As Jesus said the sheep recognize the shepherds voice and will not follow another. If you just listen to one voice you become one of the sheep. and you know how a Shepard treats his flock? he leads them to still water, he feeds them, he protects them from wolves, then one day the shepherd take one of his lambs and shaves off its wool. then in a quite soothing voice he whispers into the ear of that little lamb that everything will be okay, then he takes a knife and slits its throat, hangs it upside down to bleed it out, cuts it open and pulls out all of the guts, then skins it, chops it into pieces throws it on the BBQ and burns it till its well done, cuts it into smaller pieces then eats it, where in the stomach all of it nutrients are sucked out of it and converted into fecal matter which is deposited and flushed away never to be remembered again. use your own judgment. if you think something is off about what your being told to believe then the is. use your reason and all things will become clear.
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