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Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
02-16-2010, 05:00 AM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2010 05:04 AM by lastmikvehlastDay.)
Post: #1
Question Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
Re::Cannot we talk about Revelations and the images it uses (without the whole explanation of kingdoms and predictions from Daniel)?

Any Biblical background or 'MYTHS' of ancient Iraq? I think the fact is that I want to know MORE about the book of Revelation. How about the "Babylonian Wisdom Literature" ??? Let's make an effort, without the book of Daniel BEING necessary for its' framework. Excluding the standard commentaries or expositories on 'the book of Daniel' as a beginning place,. Still kinda wondering if people will allow the discussion of one without the other.? Well, Its' imagery.

Passage has substitutions introduced purely as an effect. . .
And the Tiamat/Physical-Universe was enraged with the Adamic race, and Tiamat/Physical-Universe went to make war with the rest of the-Saints, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I looked, and behold, CHRIST standing on Mount Zion, and with Christ one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God .. ..Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come ... For the LORD has both devised and done What He spoke against the inhabitants of Babylon .. .. .. 0T passage: O you who dwell by many waters,Abundant in treasures,Your end has come (Jer 51) Then saying, ‘What is like this great city?’ “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate ..'the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.” . . . So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF [censored] AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw the World, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit .. “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.“Those ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot .. .. ..

May take months to getting around to all this 'mystery' that surrounds its' imagery :~
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02-16-2010, 09:12 AM
Post: #2
RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
(02-16-2010 05:00 AM)lastmikvehlastDay Wrote:  Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
Re::Cannot we talk about Revelations and the images it uses (without the whole explanation of kingdoms and predictions from Daniel)?

Any Biblical background or 'MYTHS' of ancient Iraq? I think the fact is that I want to know MORE about the book of Revelation. How about the "Babylonian Wisdom Literature" ??? Let's make an effort, without the book of Daniel BEING necessary for its' framework. Excluding the standard commentaries or expositories on 'the book of Daniel' as a beginning place,. Still kinda wondering if people will allow the discussion of one without the other.? Well, Its' imagery.

Yes, it is possible to talk about Revelation without Daniel. Here is one interpretation that only mentions Daniel in passing.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm
Scroll down to Interpretation.

Like several parts of the Old Testament, Revelation takes the form of 'quasi-prophesy', alluding to recent and current events in an allegorical manner as if they were still in the future, then proceeding on to actual prophecies. The recognition of actual events and the seamless transition to the future is intended to give psychological weight to the predictions.

I am familiar with the Babylonian Wisdom Literature and Babylonian/Sumerian mythology and their influence on the Old Testament, especially Genesis, Job and Proverbs. But I am not aware of a connection between that and the imagery used in Revelation. Can you give specific details? I am sorry but I found the blue section of your post nearly unreadable.
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02-16-2010, 09:42 AM
Post: #3
RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
(02-16-2010 09:12 AM)Parousia Wrote:  
(02-16-2010 05:00 AM)lastmikvehlastDay Wrote:  Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
Re::Cannot we talk about Revelations and the images it uses (without the whole explanation of kingdoms and predictions from Daniel)?

Any Biblical background or 'MYTHS' of ancient Iraq? I think the fact is that I want to know MORE about the book of Revelation. How about the "Babylonian Wisdom Literature" ??? Let's make an effort, without the book of Daniel BEING necessary for its' framework. Excluding the standard commentaries or expositories on 'the book of Daniel' as a beginning place,. Still kinda wondering if people will allow the discussion of one without the other.? Well, Its' imagery.

Yes, it is possible to talk about Revelation without Daniel. Here is one interpretation that only mentions Daniel in passing.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm
Scroll down to Interpretation.

Like several parts of the Old Testament, Revelation takes the form of 'quasi-prophesy', alluding to recent and current events in an allegorical manner as if they were still in the future, then proceeding on to actual prophecies. The recognition of actual events and the seamless transition to the future is intended to give psychological weight to the predictions.

I am familiar with the Babylonian Wisdom Literature and Babylonian/Sumerian mythology and their influence on the Old Testament, especially Genesis, Job and Proverbs. But I am not aware of a connection between that and the imagery used in Revelation. Can you give specific details? I am sorry but I found the blue section of your post nearly unreadable.

Good luck trying to make sense of what is basically a very schizophrenic mindset that wrote Revelation. I mean what could be a more schizoid image than a Lamb of wrath? That's not to say the roots of Revelation's imagery cannot be discovered, they can, e.g. the seven-headed Beast refers to Tiamat's and Yamm's icon of the seven-headed sea monster, with each head representing one of the seven planetary rulers. The head of the Beast that is "mortally wounded, and his wound is healed" represents the moon when it goes through its phases from full to new moon.
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02-16-2010, 11:58 AM
Post: #4
RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
(02-16-2010 09:42 AM)biomystic Wrote:  Good luck trying to make sense of what is basically a very schizophrenic mindset that wrote Revelation. I mean what could be a more schizoid image than a Lamb of wrath? That's not to say the roots of Revelation's imagery cannot be discovered, they can, e.g. the seven-headed Beast refers to Tiamat's and Yamm's icon of the seven-headed sea monster, with each head representing one of the seven planetary rulers. The head of the Beast that is "mortally wounded, and his wound is healed" represents the moon when it goes through its phases from full to new moon.

I can see how a number of the images in Revelation might be related to Near East mythology and could fit in well. I know of the Babylonian Tiamat and the Levantine Yamm and their associations with the formless (and therefore evil) sea. But I had forgotten the seven headed sea serpent of Yamm. What is curious though is the use of these images in a work intended to be read by the seven churches of Asia Minor, whose Christian members originally would have been Jews of the Diaspora or Hellenized gentiles. It seems very unlikely that they would have 'gotten it'. And let us not forget John’s near obsession with the number seven throughout Revelation.[/u]

What they probably would have gotten is the use of these images to refer to contemporary events. The beast empowered by Satan is obviously Rome and the seven heads the seven emperors. The mortally wounded but healed head would be Nero. Legend of the day had it that Nero was not dead and would return to persecute Christians worse than ever. The correlation via gematria between 666 and Nero Caesar seems clear.

The Wrath of the Lamb is indeed a humorous image. But it ties together the Paschal sacrifice commemorating the protection of God’s people against his wrath, an image that Paul makes much use of, with the apocalypticist notion of a Judge wielding the wrath of God who would reward the good and punish the evil.
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02-16-2010, 03:49 PM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2010 08:10 PM by lastmikvehlastDay.)
Post: #5
Question RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
Quote:I can see how a number of the images in Revelation might be related to Near East mythology and could fit in well. I know of the Babylonian Tiamat and the Levantine Yamm and their associations with the formless (and therefore evil) sea. But I had forgotten the seven headed sea serpent of Yamm. What is curious though is the use of these images in a work intended to be read by the seven churches of Asia Minor

Quote:.. [the] beast empowered by Satan is obviously Rome and the seven heads the seven emperors

Like many I have heard how over the Centuries that 'R0ME' might have been the 'key (if you will)'. But Have you ever heard of the phrase "Seventh Heaven". Might it be possible that 'the seven hills', in the text, are actually much nearer to Eden. If Conservative Christians would crack open a book on Myths of the region, they surely would see all sorts of encoded gems of information. (But getting them to is like beating your head against a brick wall)
One former christian said it best, "it's all a lot of guess-work". At my other forums I had problems getting folks to stay in the same book (as me). With Discoveries of information gleaned from after 'the Eighteenth Century', I find it is hard to get people-to stay in the same geographic 'region' (as me) :~

Quote: ... I know 0f The Babylonian Tiamat ...

Tongue

P.S. -- The "horn" of Tiamat is spoken of in the ANE texts and ANE materials. It is not a matter of mere 'opinion', but encoded & in plain view. What I say has no baring on that 'fact'.
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02-17-2010, 12:13 AM
Post: #6
RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
(02-16-2010 11:58 AM)Parousia Wrote:  
(02-16-2010 09:42 AM)biomystic Wrote:  Good luck trying to make sense of what is basically a very schizophrenic mindset that wrote Revelation. I mean what could be a more schizoid image than a Lamb of wrath? That's not to say the roots of Revelation's imagery cannot be discovered, they can, e.g. the seven-headed Beast refers to Tiamat's and Yamm's icon of the seven-headed sea monster, with each head representing one of the seven planetary rulers. The head of the Beast that is "mortally wounded, and his wound is healed" represents the moon when it goes through its phases from full to new moon.

I can see how a number of the images in Revelation might be related to Near East mythology and could fit in well. I know of the Babylonian Tiamat and the Levantine Yamm and their associations with the formless (and therefore evil) sea. But I had forgotten the seven headed sea serpent of Yamm. What is curious though is the use of these images in a work intended to be read by the seven churches of Asia Minor, whose Christian members originally would have been Jews of the Diaspora or Hellenized gentiles. It seems very unlikely that they would have 'gotten it'. And let us not forget John’s near obsession with the number seven throughout Revelation.[/u]

What they probably would have gotten is the use of these images to refer to contemporary events. The beast empowered by Satan is obviously Rome and the seven heads the seven emperors. The mortally wounded but healed head would be Nero. Legend of the day had it that Nero was not dead and would return to persecute Christians worse than ever. The correlation via gematria between 666 and Nero Caesar seems clear.

The Wrath of the Lamb is indeed a humorous image. But it ties together the Paschal sacrifice commemorating the protection of God’s people against his wrath, an image that Paul makes much use of, with the apocalypticist notion of a Judge wielding the wrath of God who would reward the good and punish the evil.

Wrath of the Lamb is a "humorous image"? That's a new way of looking at it, I must say. To me, it is the image of what is totally unChristian and morally wrong about Revelation which, like the latter attempt of Muhammad to make the return of Jesus into a revenge-seeking Muslim, completely contradicts the teachings of forgiveness of sins by Jesus and God in the Gospels. Did you know that one can see in Revelation a continuation in symbolic form of the Gospel John's attack on Judaism? Take that Beast from the sea for example when one knows from the Canaanite cuniform texts that EL changed Yamm's name to Yah or Yahwe.

[Image: nIsa27010Dore_TheDestructionOfLevia.jpg]

Or take that Mark (of the Beast) on the hand or forehead, a direct attack the wearing of "frontlets" and the signet rings of important Jews with the name of God in them used as seals for marking business transactions.

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02-18-2010, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 02-18-2010 11:24 PM by lastmikvehlastDay.)
Post: #7
Toungue RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
Yeah, crack open a book on Bible "Customs" could very well support this idea of the 'Mark on the hand or forehead, [was] wearing of "frontlets" and the signet rings of important Jews ..'
That is interesting and an interesting topic, but doesnt have that much to do with the topic here .. .. As I ve referenced & indicated in a direct correspondence to you (via e-mail) concerning Yahweh
".. I won't have time to fully explicate what's going on here. But it has to do with the four letters Yahweh YHWH - The Tetragrammaton.

.. As for my continued usage of the term "yama" there are countless examples of its' use (especially in association w/ & in names for bodies of water, in the cuneiform).. EVEN in the mythological texts.'"






>. Topic is more to do w/ Ancient Near East Imagery


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02-19-2010, 03:54 AM
Post: #8
RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
Multi-headed serpents and serpents or dragons associated with water are the typical enemies of heavenly Gods in European and Eastern mythologies. There is the Leviathan of course, and 7-headed Lotan and Yamm in conjunction with Baal, but these are part of something broader. There is the Indian 3-headed Vrtra vs. Indra, 3-headed Azi Dahaka in Persia, Zeus battling Typhon and his 200 dragon heads, Thor and Jormungandr, etc. Even Hercules and the swamp-dwelling Hydra is just a continuation of the Zeus vs Typhon battle between the sons of the two. You'll see much of the same in Baltic and Slavic myth too. Even in Japan, the storm God Susanoo kills a serpent with eight heads at the head waters of a river. I really know of no myth that is more widespread. In this, Revelation simply seems to be attaching a prophecy to a common image, perhaps assigning symbolic meaning to the number of heads.
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02-19-2010, 12:40 PM (This post was last modified: 02-19-2010 12:56 PM by lastmikvehlastDay.)
Post: #9
Rolleyes RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
(02-19-2010 03:54 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  Venedi Sporoi stated, 'Multi-headed serpents and serpents or dragons associated with water are the typical enemies of heavenly Gods in European and Eastern mythologies. There is the Leviathan of course, and 7-headed Lotan and Yamm in conjunction with Baal, but these are part of something broader. There is the Indian 3-headed Vrtra vs. Indra, 3-headed Azi Dahaka in Persia, Zeus battling Typhon and his 200 dragon heads, Thor and Jormungandr, etc. Even Hercules and the swamp-dwelling Hydra is just a continuation of the Zeus vs Typhon battle between the sons of the two.'.

Precisely! Venedi Sporoi is pointing at a pretty universal myth within 'theomachy' . . . Besides a multi-headed serpentine deity isnt the sort you'd want to worship.
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02-19-2010, 03:36 PM
Post: #10
RE: Ancient Near East Imagery in the Book of Rev. (the B*E*A*S*T) :
(02-19-2010 12:40 PM)lastmikvehlastDay Wrote:  
(02-19-2010 03:54 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  Venedi Sporoi stated, 'Multi-headed serpents and serpents or dragons associated with water are the typical enemies of heavenly Gods in European and Eastern mythologies. There is the Leviathan of course, and 7-headed Lotan and Yamm in conjunction with Baal, but these are part of something broader. There is the Indian 3-headed Vrtra vs. Indra, 3-headed Azi Dahaka in Persia, Zeus battling Typhon and his 200 dragon heads, Thor and Jormungandr, etc. Even Hercules and the swamp-dwelling Hydra is just a continuation of the Zeus vs Typhon battle between the sons of the two.'.

Precisely! Venedi Sporoi is pointing at a pretty universal myth within 'theomachy' . . . Besides a multi-headed serpentine deity isnt the sort you'd want to worship.

Well, I might be less sure of that than most. There's certainly a tendency to demonize the serpent, but sometimes it shows a benevolent side as well. You can see it in Indian Naga's and Slavic Zmey who can either block or withold water and fertility, or release it if they are venerated and well-treated. Mucalinda in Buddhism is one instance of a benevolent polycephalous naga, and the Slavic God Veles the "Devil or dragon... who dwelt upon the sea." was arguably of the same ilk as Yam- and was worshipped.
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