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Baptism
07-10-2013, 03:46 PM
Post: #1
Baptism
For Christians out there:

Do you believe baptism should be by immersion or by sprinkling?

Do you believe baptism should be for babies or for only adults?

Do you believe baptism forgives sins or do you believe it is just a symbol of your conversion?

What are your reasons behind your opinions?
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07-10-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 08:57 PM by Azrael17.)
Post: #2
RE: Baptism
(07-10-2013 03:46 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  For Christians out there:

Do you believe baptism should be by immersion or by sprinkling?

Do you believe baptism should be for babies or for only adults?

Do you believe baptism forgives sins or do you believe it is just a symbol of your conversion?

What are your reasons behind your opinions?

I do not believe that we need to be immersed in water but that we need to be immersed in the spirit of God. Baptism is only for people who can discern right from wrong.

When we are baptized in the spirit of god we begin to want to do what is right and we get a strong desire to avoid sin and to love all others and god. It can be seen as it says by the fruits of their ways you will know them. It does not take a clergy to baptize but they must seek god with all their heart and they must desire wisdom. Sin is forgiven by God based on mercy and forgiveness, she is willing to forgive and have mercy on us so long as we do the same for others. Those who are spiritually awakened have the authority to forgive sins but only because god has given it to them.

I do not believe in communion because I do not believe in blood sacrifice.
I do however believe we must confess our sins in public but it doesn't need to be a priest. We are not to judge those who confess their sins to us.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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07-11-2013, 08:56 AM
Post: #3
RE: Baptism
(07-10-2013 03:46 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  Do you believe baptism should be by immersion or by sprinkling?

Biblically, as taught in my faith, John baptized Jesus by immersion. We (Baptists) follow that practice.

(07-10-2013 03:46 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  Do you believe baptism should be for babies or for only adults?

'Age of accountability/reason' is taught within my faith.

(07-10-2013 03:46 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  Do you believe baptism forgives sins or do you believe it is just a symbol of your conversion?

Baptism doesn't forgive sins - God forgives sin. Confession of sin begets forgiveness. Baptism is a symbolic event representing the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. There are people who become saved but never go through baptism.
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07-12-2013, 10:55 PM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2013 10:57 PM by shiverleaf15.)
Post: #4
RE: Baptism
I have a difficult time believing in baptism not being the agent of forgiveness of sins. The Bible alone never says it was symbolic when it keeps saying baptism is for the remission of sins, for the washing away of sins, etc, but not just that, for more than centuries that was the belief of all Christians.

I believe baptism must be by confession, so after an age when someone would be capable of using reason to get baptized and converted. I believe baptism should be by immersion because of Romans 6:3-4. I believe baptism does forgive sins, but not magically: rather, when the baptizing minister baptizes someone, he is binding on Earth and God is binding in Heaven, or you could say, loosing on Earth and God is loosing in Heaven. In other words, the man dips the other man in the water, but it's God in Heaven who blots the sins out from his Book of Remembrance. It is therefore important in my opinion that the minister's heart be in line with God via purity and spirituality and such, so he can be doing God's will when he does what he does. I also think that John 20:23, when Jesus says he gave his apostles power to remit or retain sins, means they could do this through baptism, because that's the only thing consistently said in the scriptures to forgive sins: sins are never forgiven through confession to a priest in the Bible. I think the way people obtain this power to baptize is from the apostles through a line of ordination succession.
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07-12-2013, 11:17 PM
Post: #5
RE: Baptism
(07-12-2013 10:55 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  I have a difficult time believing in baptism not being the agent of forgiveness of sins. The Bible alone never says it was symbolic when it keeps saying baptism is for the remission of sins, for the washing away of sins, etc, but not just that, for more than centuries that was the belief of all Christians.

I believe baptism must be by confession, so after an age when someone would be capable of using reason to get baptized and converted. I believe baptism should be by immersion because of Romans 6:3-4. I believe baptism does forgive sins, but not magically: rather, when the baptizing minister baptizes someone, he is binding on Earth and God is binding in Heaven, or you could say, loosing on Earth and God is loosing in Heaven. In other words, the man dips the other man in the water, but it's God in Heaven who blots the sins out from his Book of Remembrance. It is therefore important in my opinion that the minister's heart be in line with God via purity and spirituality and such, so he can be doing God's will when he does what he does. I also think that John 20:23, when Jesus says he gave his apostles power to remit or retain sins, means they could do this through baptism, because that's the only thing consistently said in the scriptures to forgive sins: sins are never forgiven through confession to a priest in the Bible. I think the way people obtain this power to baptize is from the apostles through a line of ordination succession.

Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness.

We must Repent and be truthfully sorry for our sin,
we must aim to be better and submit our will to God and we must be willing to forgive others and have mercy upon others.

The physical immersion in water is symbolic and nothing more, the ritual it's self has no value it is what is in the heart of the one who is undergoing the baptism and it is between them and God, the person guiding them is just a guide just as a road sign might lead you to your destination but it is you who chooses to follow it. If they are not fully committed then they are in a way lying in public view. To me all the ritual really represents is a public admittance that you have become a Christian.
Any Christian who is truly dedicated to God has been granted authority to forgive sin by God. It doesn't matter if your a priest or not. In fact some priests only pretend to be good while on the inside they are wicked to the core. I've known a few priests like that.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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07-12-2013, 11:38 PM
Post: #6
RE: Baptism
Azrael17 Wrote:Repentance, Atonement, Forgiveness.

We must Repent and be truthfully sorry for our sin,
we must aim to be better and submit our will to God and we must be willing to forgive others and have mercy upon others.

The physical immersion in water is symbolic and nothing more, the ritual it's self has no value it is what is in the heart of the one who is undergoing the baptism and it is between them and God, the person guiding them is just a guide just as a road sign might lead you to your destination but it is you who chooses to follow it. If they are not fully committed then they are in a way lying in public view. To me all the ritual really represents is a public admittance that you have become a Christian.
Any Christian who is truly dedicated to God has been granted authority to forgive sin by God. It doesn't matter if your a priest or not. In fact some priests only pretend to be good while on the inside they are wicked to the core. I've known a few priests like that.

Yeah, for Mormons the "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" quote by Peter the apostles means a lot to us in its entirety. The first part is repent, which means, firstly, a change of heart, secondly, a confession to God of the past wrongs performed, thirdly, godly sorrow for the past sin, fourthly, restitution for any wrongdoings wherever possible, fifthly, renunciation of the past sin and an attempt to cease sinning. I believe that is in line with what you said about repentance.

The way I see the importance of baptism is reflected in the way in which I understand the relationship of blood with water and Spirit. For me, the blood of Christ paid the ransom for our sins, hence our sins are already "paid for" by him, but the water is the way in which our own guilt is washed away, which is why it must be preceded by repentance. The Spirit is there to then sanctify us, ideally with the end result of full sanctification, after which it becomes impossible for a man to sin because he just won't want to by his very nature.

There's another thing: for Mormons, if you get baptized, to know that you have really been forgiven of all sins in the end of your life, you need to have the Holy Spirit himself testify to you that you have persevered and have had the value of the ordinance "sealed". This we call being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. It means God is pleased with all the ordinances (baptism, etc) you have performed. For us, an ordinance is a token initiating a covenant with God. It requires us to keep promises so that God in tun will keep his own promises, which results in particular blessings. Baptism is a covenant whereby a person becomes part of the Body of Christ, and then being "in" Christ, we reap the blessings promised by God unto Abraham and his "one" seed, not "many" seeds. The "one" seed is Jesus: this is why we aren't saved alongside Jesus but "in" Jesus, mystically speaking, becoming saved by being his very body, the Body of Christ, which is another name for the Bride of Christ (this equivalency is in turn because when a man and a woman marry they become one "flesh", or one and the same "body", mystically speaking). Paul twice says that we are baptized into Christ (Christ's body). There is no other way but by covenant, therefore, via baptism, according to my beliefs.
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07-13-2013, 05:06 PM
Post: #7
RE: Baptism
(07-10-2013 03:46 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  For Christians out there:
Do you believe baptism should be by immersion or by sprinkling?
Do you believe baptism should be for babies or for only adults?
Do you believe baptism forgives sins or do you believe it is just a symbol of your conversion?
What are your reasons behind your opinions?

Jesus, as our example or model to follow, was completely immersed.- 1st Peter 2 v 21
No mention of baby baptism because a baby can Not first make a dedication to God as required.
Jesus' shed blood forgives sin [ 1st John 1 v 7 B ]
1st Peter 3 v 21 connects baptism as to gaining a good or clean conscience before God.
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07-13-2013, 06:50 PM
Post: #8
RE: Baptism
URAVIP2ME Wrote:1st Peter 3 v 21 connects baptism as to gaining a good or clean conscience before God.

Indeed. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice (:

For me, the putting away of the filth of the flesh means sanctification and the removal of the body's natural fallen nature. This is the fullness of baptism by the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water erases our guilt for past sins, which is why repentance must precede it. Sanctification removes our natural tendency to sin, thus preventing us from committing future sins. Together we become free from sin both ways. Thus, being born of water and Spirit becomes the way by which we can enter the Kingdom of God, as Jesus said.
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07-14-2013, 08:49 AM
Post: #9
RE: Baptism
Baptism is derived from the Jewish mikveh ritual, in which a woman at the end of her "unclean" part of the month bathes herself to become ritually pure. Also required after a woman gives birth, and also whenever touching dead bodies, after a man's seminal emission, and a few other things that I don't remember...
In any case, it is done with full immerison in a bath.
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07-14-2013, 09:36 AM
Post: #10
RE: Baptism
Aren't Gentile converts to Judaism also immersed in a mikveh? I've heard that's the case, and they do that as well as circumcision if male in order to become Jews officially.

I personally believe that's where baptism-for-entry-into-the-Christian-Church came from. However, the Tanakh never quite mentions immersion for conversion of Gentiles I think.

I guess it's one of those things that come from the Oral Torah?
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