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Being Comprehensible
11-13-2017, 04:35 PM
Post: #1
Being Comprehensible
Some people think #3
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I propose this topic of discussion:

Some people think that the words that they use are instantly comprehensible to other people. We have all kinds of experts who inundate us with their technical jargon. When it comes to theology, has it been your experience that people don’t really seem to understand what you mean?

Just to take one word out of the theological playbook, for example, what is a "god"? There seems to be quite a few variations.

amen
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11-13-2017, 05:00 PM
Post: #2
RE: Being Comprehensible
Faith.

In the religious worldview, faith is held up as the most admirable quality a believer can possess. It’s the very essence of what is required to receive the gift of grace (along with repentance). It is considered a virtue to maintain one's faith in the face of even the most compelling contradictory information and challenges (e.g. the trials of Job, the temptation of Christ, etc). Inversely, doubting, asking questions, being a skeptic are all put forth as cautionary tales (e.g. doubting Thomas, Peter first walking on water but then almost drowning when he became fearful). The quality of faith is revered by the believer above all others as the most virtuous of achievements.

In a scientific (not necessarily Atheistic) worldview, this same quality is considered a failing. Adherence to a position in the presence of contradictory evidence is known as confirmation bias among scientists. It is the error that has led to some of the greatest failures in science. Indeed, many of the often cited examples of science gone wrong by theists are actually cases where confirmation bias led researchers to stubbornly cling to wrong conclusions. But another common theistic criticism of science is that its conclusions change with new information, while the scientific community considers this its greatest strength. In science, carrying no preconceived notions into your research on the possible outcome is considered to be a virtuous achievement leading to the honest pursuit of objective knowledge. This is why when theists talk of "creation science" we typically respond with "that's not really science" because there is no effort to mitigate confirmation bias in the "research".

So, we have a situation where each side reveres what the other side considers to be a major fault. Theists tell scientists that they must have more "faith". While scientists tell theists they must resist their "confirmation bias". Both parties are actually talking about the exact same quality, but one considers it admirable while the other considers it an error. Such a direct assault on a person's worldview (in either direction) is bound to cause a few ruffled feathers from time to time.
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11-13-2017, 06:25 PM (This post was last modified: 11-13-2017 06:27 PM by muhammad_isa.)
Post: #3
RE: Being Comprehensible
(11-13-2017 05:00 PM)Japle Wrote:  ...
So, we have a situation where each side reveres what the other side considers to be a major fault. Theists tell scientists that they must have more "faith". While scientists tell theists they must resist their "confirmation bias". Both parties are actually talking about the exact same quality, but one considers it admirable while the other considers it an error. Such a direct assault on a person's worldview (in either direction) is bound to cause a few ruffled feathers from time to time.

I agree with you to some extent ..
However, you speak as if faith is something that has no foundation. This might be the case, as a lot of people are part of a tribal group when it comes to religion, and are not very knowledgable. They rely on others to 'be right'. Some people make up their own minds and choose a religion. This might be due to knowledge or it might be for social reasons, for example. Believers experience the same problem as atheists in this regard .. people stubbornly refuse to accept logical arguments, perhaps through fear of losing their tribal status or 'comfort zone'. Just a thought

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
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11-14-2017, 02:31 AM
Post: #4
RE: Being Comprehensible
(11-13-2017 05:00 PM)Japle Wrote:  So, we have a situation where each side reveres what the other side considers to be a major fault. Theists tell scientists that they must have more "faith". While scientists tell theists they must resist their "confirmation bias". Both parties are actually talking about the exact same quality, but one considers it admirable while the other considers it an error. Such a direct assault on a person's worldview (in either direction) is bound to cause a few ruffled feathers from time to time.

Very sharp observation... and in the end, most of the time it has to do with what is considered "evidence" by theists and atheists.



(11-13-2017 06:25 PM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  
(11-13-2017 05:00 PM)Japle Wrote:  So, we have a situation where each side reveres what the other side considers to be a major fault. Theists tell scientists that they must have more "faith". While scientists tell theists they must resist their "confirmation bias". Both parties are actually talking about the exact same quality, but one considers it admirable while the other considers it an error. Such a direct assault on a person's worldview (in either direction) is bound to cause a few ruffled feathers from time to time.

I agree with you to some extent ..
However, you speak as if faith is something that has no foundation. This might be the case, as a lot of people are part of a tribal group when it comes to religion, and are not very knowledgable. They rely on others to 'be right'. Some people make up their own minds and choose a religion. This might be due to knowledge or it might be for social reasons, for example. Believers experience the same problem as atheists in this regard .. people stubbornly refuse to accept logical arguments, perhaps through fear of losing their tribal status or 'comfort zone'. Just a thought

An interesting thought Isa, and very true for a great part.

What springs to mind immediately however is the fact that you yourself, on many occasions, refused to accept logical arguments... how would you rate your own actions in view of what you say above? Wink

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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11-14-2017, 06:16 AM
Post: #5
RE: Being Comprehensible
(11-14-2017 02:31 AM)Herminator Wrote:  ...
What springs to mind immediately however is the fact that you yourself, on many occasions, refused to accept logical arguments... how would you rate your own actions in view of what you say above? Wink

We all get it wrong sometimes Smile

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
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11-14-2017, 07:24 AM
Post: #6
RE: Being Comprehensible
(11-14-2017 06:16 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  
(11-14-2017 02:31 AM)Herminator Wrote:  ...
What springs to mind immediately however is the fact that you yourself, on many occasions, refused to accept logical arguments... how would you rate your own actions in view of what you say above? Wink

We all get it wrong sometimes Smile

That's very honest Isa Angelic

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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11-14-2017, 08:07 PM
Post: #7
RE: Being Comprehensible
(11-13-2017 05:00 PM)Japle Wrote:  Faith.
In the religious worldview, faith is held up as the most admirable quality a believer can possess. It’s the very essence of what is required to receive the gift of grace (along with repentance). It is considered a virtue to maintain one's faith in the face of even the most compelling contradictory information and challenges (e.g. the trials of Job, the temptation of Christ, etc). Inversely, doubting, asking questions, being a skeptic are all put forth as cautionary tales (e.g. doubting Thomas, Peter first walking on water but then almost drowning when he became fearful). The quality of faith is revered by the believer above all others as the most virtuous of achievements.

In a scientific (not necessarily Atheistic) worldview, this same quality is considered a failing. Adherence to a position in the presence of contradictory evidence is known as confirmation bias among scientists. It is the error that has led to some of the greatest failures in science. Indeed, many of the often cited examples of science gone wrong by theists are actually cases where confirmation bias led researchers to stubbornly cling to wrong conclusions. But another common theistic criticism of science is that its conclusions change with new information, while the scientific community considers this its greatest strength. In science, carrying no preconceived notions into your research on the possible outcome is considered to be a virtuous achievement leading to the honest pursuit of objective knowledge. This is why when theists talk of "creation science" we typically respond with "that's not really science" because there is no effort to mitigate confirmation bias in the "research".

So, we have a situation where each side reveres what the other side considers to be a major fault. Theists tell scientists that they must have more "faith". While scientists tell theists they must resist their "confirmation bias". Both parties are actually talking about the exact same quality, but one considers it admirable while the other considers it an error. Such a direct assault on a person's worldview (in either direction) is bound to cause a few ruffled feathers from time to time.

Science and Religion are not compatible - Science is like a Teacher asking a math question - what is 2+2 and the teacher is expecting a math answer - saying "Stuff" or "the result" is not the answer that the teacher is looking for, she will fail you
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11-16-2017, 08:58 AM
Post: #8
RE: Being Comprehensible
Okay, I'll try another one.

Prayer.

You know, praying isn’t an indication of faith; it’s an indication of doubt and ego.
Praying to your god for help or to ask him to change something means you doubt that he knows what’s going on.
It means you think you have a better handle on what’s happening in the world he created than he does.
It means you doubt that he’s competent to correctly manage the world.
It means you think you’re smarter and wiser than your god.
It means you think your knowledge and judgment is superior to that of your god and that he should acknowledge that fact and alter his divine plan to suit your wishes.
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11-16-2017, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 11-16-2017 12:23 PM by muhammad_isa.)
Post: #9
RE: Being Comprehensible
(11-16-2017 08:58 AM)Japle Wrote:  ..
Praying to your god for help or to ask him to change something means you doubt that he knows what’s going on.
No it doesn't .. it means that we admit our helplessness in some situations..
Almighty God is not in need of us .. we are in need of Him. If we remember Almighty God, He will remember us ie. good deeds are rewarde in this life in the next

(11-16-2017 08:58 AM)Japle Wrote:  ...
It means you think your knowledge and judgment is superior to that of your god and that he should acknowledge that fact and alter his divine plan to suit your wishes.

No .. that would be the writer of such nonsense Smile
His "divine plan" cannot fail .. that does not mean that prayer has no effect. Those that don't pray clearly think that they can do without help. Those that do remember Him regularly bring blessings to their locality Angelic

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
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Yesterday, 03:15 PM
Post: #10
RE: Being Comprehensible
(11-16-2017 08:58 AM)Japle Wrote:  Okay, I'll try another one.
Prayer.
You know, praying isn’t an indication of faith; it’s an indication of doubt and ego.
Praying to your god for help or to ask him to change something means you doubt that he knows what’s going on.
It means you think you have a better handle on what’s happening in the world he created than he does.
It means you doubt that he’s competent to correctly manage the world.
It means you think you’re smarter and wiser than your god.
It means you think your knowledge and judgment is superior to that of your god and that he should acknowledge that fact and alter his divine plan to suit your wishes.

You are looking at it from the wrong side - prayer is also a reflection of our feelings, when bad things happen people pray - it gives them comfort.

Also not all prayer is done with words - a dancer dancing in the temple sings to God - "See my worship or prayer" - whatever work you do in life is also a worship or prayer
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