Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Benefitting the Dead _1
09-01-2009, 07:25 AM
Post: #1
Benefitting the Dead _1
The Qur'aan established two general principles concerning the reward and punishment for deeds:
1) Each human will fundamentally only be benefited or harmed by the deeds which he or she actually did. Allah says, “...that humans will only have the result of their actions.” [Soorah An-Najm 53:39]

2) No human can carry the sin of another. Allah says, “...that no one bearing sins can carry the sins of others.” [Soorah An-Najm 53:38]

Consequently, when a person dies, the opportunity for that person to do good ends with the person's death. However, the chance to harvest good from deeds which were done prior to death remains.

Du'aa
The prayers of other Muslims on behalf of the dead will benefit the dead, by the permission of God. Had they done no good, no one would consider praying for them. If they were evil, the prayers of others will not benefit them. In Chapter Al-Hashr (59:10), Allaah praises the believers who pray for those who have passed away before their time:

And those who came after them say: Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith, and do not put in our hearts any hatred against the believers. Our Lord, You are indeed full of kindness, Most Merciful.

Furthermore, the funeral prayer itself consists mostly of prayers for the dead. Safwaan [the narrator mentioned that Safwaan ibn `Abdillaah ibn Safwaan was married to ad-Dardaa] said, "I visited Abud-Dardaa's home in Syria, but did not find him there. Ummud-Dardaa’ asked [me], ‘Are you going to make Hajj this year?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ She said, ‘Pray to Allaah for good for us, for the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, ‘The prayer of Muslim for his Muslim brother in his absence will be answered. As long as he prays for the good of his brother, there is an angel assigned near his head who says: Amen, and may the same be for you.’ I left and went to the marketplace where I met Abud-Dardaa’ and he related from the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) the same as that.” [Sahih Muslim, vol.4, p.1429, no.6590.]

Fasting

Fasts missed by dead persons may be done on their behalf by their close relatives. The fasts may be from Ramadaan or from oaths (nathr).

`Aa'ishah quoted Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) as saying, “Whoever died owing fasts, his guardian should fast on his behalf” [Sahih Al-Bukhaari, vol. 3, p.99, no.173, and Sahih Muslim, vol. 2, p.556, no. 2553.]

Ibn 'Abbaas said, “A man came to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) and asked, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, my mother died owing one month of fasting. Should I do it for her?’ He replied, ‘Yes, debts to Allaah have more right to be paid.’” [Sahih Al-Bukhaari, vol. 3, p. 99, no. 174, and Sahih Muslim, vol. 2, p. 556, no. 2554.] In another narration a woman asked about her mother’s debt of fasting and got the same reply. [Sahih Muslim, vol. 2, pp. 556-7, nos. 2554, 2557-61.]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 09:22 AM
Post: #2
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
Logically this leads to no consequences at all.

As you noted, "humans will only have the result of their actions." So therefore we are only punished for things we are responsible.

According to Islam, god is all-powerful. This means he can do absolutely anything.

According to Islam, god is all-knowing. This means he knows all things at all times.

Combining these, we have a god that knows everything and can do everything. Thus, if anything does not go the way he wishes it to he can change it instantly. It is literally impossible to do anything that is not god's will.

Thus, according to Islam, we are not at fault for anything that we do. Because we are unable to do anything that is not the will of god. Thus all wrongdoing is really god's fault.

Thus any soul sent to damnation is a cruel miscarriage of justice by a spiteful, capricious deity.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2009 09:51 AM by moslemman.)
Post: #3
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
(09-01-2009 09:22 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Logically this leads to no consequences at all.

As you noted, "humans will only have the result of their actions." So therefore we are only punished for things we are responsible.

According to Islam, god is all-powerful. This means he can do absolutely anything.

According to Islam, god is all-knowing. This means he knows all things at all times.

Combining these, we have a god that knows everything and can do everything. Thus, if anything does not go the way he wishes it to he can change it instantly. It is literally impossible to do anything that is not god's will.

Thus, according to Islam, we are not at fault for anything that we do. Because we are unable to do anything that is not the will of god. Thus all wrongdoing is really god's fault.

Thus any soul sent to damnation is a cruel miscarriage of justice by a spiteful, capricious deity.

and do you think that the God don't know everything and do you suspect that he know what happens around the world ofcourse he know because he is the creator he created us and know what we will do and what faults we will do but he test us so and no one refuse paradise only if he refuse to warship the God and there are in Quraan words that refer to that so Allah know what happens before it happens so -- Allah wilم make your want if you want to do evil things and faults or you choose to warship Allah and to do good things Allah will let you do it so he will reward the believers and punish the non - believers according to their choose and faults
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 09:53 AM
Post: #4
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
I'm sorry, I was barely able to interpret what you were saying.

I THINK you were saying that god only punishes us according to our choices and faults.

Except as I've indicated, we make no choices, and we have no faults, because it is quite impossible to do anything without god knowing it and being able to change it. If he does not change it then it is clearly what he wants. According to Islam, there is no good, and no evil, since it is impossible to do anything god does not want.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 11:13 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2009 11:16 AM by moslemman.)
Post: #5
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
(09-01-2009 09:53 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  I'm sorry, I was barely able to interpret what you were saying.

I THINK you were saying that god only punishes us according to our choices and faults.

Except as I've indicated, we make no choices, and we have no faults, because it is quite impossible to do anything without god knowing it and being able to change it. If he does not change it then it is clearly what he wants. According to Islam, there is no good, and no evil, since it is impossible to do anything god does not want.
i think the concept was clear and i explain it better of course you dont do anything Allah don't want - but it doesnt mean that Allah want you to do the bad things
Allah test you in the situation if you choose the good thing you will be forgiven if you choose to do the bad you will be punished
and i think no mind believe that we don't do a thing we don't want for example you will not steal and tell the judge i am sorry i didn't mean to do
but my hand moved to steal and kill it was not my choose

S´rah az-Zalzalah

1. In the name of Allah the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful

1. When the earth is shaken with its [final] earthquake
2. And the earth discharges its burdens1832
3. And man says,1833 "What is [wrong] with it?" –
4. That Day, it will report its news
5. Because your Lord has inspired [i.e., commanded] it.
6. That Day, the people will depart1834 separated [into categories]
to be shown [the result of] their deeds.
7. So whoever does an atom's weight1835 of good will see it,
8. And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.
and there is an advice from me dont attack Islam but know about it and it is your choice after that
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 12:25 PM
Post: #6
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
I want you to look at your post again. "You don't do anything Allah don't [sic] want - but it doesn't mean that Allah want [sic] you to do the bad things."

These are mutually exclusive. If you don't do anything god doesn't want, then by definition you cannot do "bad things" (assuming "bad" means "what god doesn't want"). Thus again, the blame rests solely with god.

EITHER we can do things apart from god's will, in which case god is not all-knowing and all-powerful (or doesn't exist)
OR god is all-knowing and all-powerful, and we are not responsible for anything bad that we do.

Logically I don't see any other options. If I'm missing one, please let me know.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 05:07 PM
Post: #7
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
(09-01-2009 12:25 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  EITHER we can do things apart from god's will, in which case god is not all-knowing and all-powerful (or doesn't exist)
OR god is all-knowing and all-powerful, and we are not responsible for anything bad that we do.

Logically I don't see any other options. If I'm missing one, please let me know.

An avenue I explored in another thread is that the universe is the thought of God and time is the logical unfolding of that thought. God would then know everything that has happened at each partcular point in time but would not have knowledge of the future until the future happened. Unbreakable prophecy or other form of fore-knowledge would be logically inconsistent, like introducing a conclusion as a premise.

Miracles would also be logically inconsistent, but then that is almost the definition of a miracle, isn't it? A miracle would need to be logically consistent with some meta-universe that somehow allows for a local alteration in the normal rules of operation. But when one considers what this universe is like in the entirety of its space-time, it becomes difficult to imagine legitimate reasons for miracles. Why would the God of this (and any other) universe(s) care about some slaves in Egypt, for example?

I see no inherent logical problem with some creatures having free will, there being no fore-knowledge to tie them in paradoxical knots. It depends on whether that is logically consistent with the particular laws and conditions of the universe. These creatures might be likened to participants in some multi-player video game. They can do what they want within certain limits imposed by the game and get acted on by other players and forces inherent in the game. On the other hand I see no compelling reason for thinking that the mental processes we so blithely label free will are other than purely physical.

But as I have said elsehere, I see no connection between a God-concept that avoids the common paradoxes and any particular religion or even the idea of religion itself. The existence of God does not drive any moral imperatives as far as I can see.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 06:19 PM
Post: #8
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
Stupid me posited an argument without properly defining his terms. In order for this argument to be valid, not only must god be all-powerful and all-knowing, but he must also be shown willing and able to interfere in the workings of the physical world. A god who has chosen to keep his hands off does not apply.

In the Quran and the Bible both it is clear that god has no problem interfering with the world. Both religions also make it clear that one cannot go against the nebulous idea of "god's will". This makes the third premise.

Premise 1.) God is all-powerful
Premise 2.) God is all-knowing
Premise 3.) God has an anthropomorphic will that he enforces

In accepting these three premises as correct (which Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all do,) then we are unable to do anything that is outside of god's will. Thus if a soul goes to damnation that is god's will, and the goodness, badness, or guilt of that soul has no bearing on the matter. Indeed, all three of these religions have two other premises.

Premise 4.) Sin is disobedience to god
Premise 5.) Man is responsible for his own sins

And at this point there is no logical conclusion that can be made. The premises are contradictory. Thus, some of the premises MUST be wrong. And yet Islam, along with Christianity and Judaism, teach us that all five premises are correct.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 06:59 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2009 09:33 AM by moslemman.)
Post: #9
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
(09-01-2009 12:25 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  I want you to look at your post again. "You don't do anything Allah don't [sic] want - but it doesn't mean that Allah want [sic] you to do the bad things."

These are mutually exclusive. If you don't do anything god doesn't want, then by definition you cannot do "bad things" (assuming "bad" means "what god doesn't want"). Thus again, the blame rests solely with god.

EITHER we can do things apart from god's will, in which case god is not all-knowing and all-powerful (or doesn't exist)
OR god is all-knowing and all-powerful, and we are not responsible for anything bad that we do.

Logically I don't see any other options. If I'm missing one, please let me know.

as you see i changed my words and you repeat the words without change that mean you understand my words and dont have something to say
Allah want the good things from us so i will do it and Allah know that i will do - so the question why Allah test me and he know before that i will do the good thing or the bad - the answer so why you enter the paradise if you were not tested why you see you must go to paradise then there will be no reason to join then according to the holy Quraan
and i have an advice for you if you love the advice i have an version of translation of meanings for the holy Quraan i can give it to you and download it - but before decide to read decide to be neutral not attacker , read to understand
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
09-01-2009, 08:38 PM
Post: #10
RE: Benefitting the Dead _1
I'm sorry, I simply cannot understand what you are saying. I'm guessing English is not your first language. The only part I understood is that somehow you think I am misquoting you - which I'm not. As you can see by looking at your post I quoted you exactly, bad grammar and all.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Benefitting the Dead _2 moslemman 0 401 09-01-2009 07:26 AM
Last Post: moslemman



User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)