Poll: Did you answer the questions with a solid truth based on the verse in question?
by the end of the study do you belive you answered wisely?
by the end of the study would you change your original answers?
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Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
01-26-2010, 09:58 PM (This post was last modified: 01-26-2010 10:28 PM by todd_vetter33.)
Post: #1
Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
I want to share a new discovery with you. In this short study on how Half truth can lead to false testimony and even Error, I ask three questions which you will find illustrated in Purple font about a quarter the way through this short article.

Share how you would have originally answered the three questions with others in this thread, but also share if you would have changed your answer by the end of this article.

Here is the link to the short article.
http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pd...%201-2.pdf

Let's see if you can answer three simple questions regarding Exodus 16:1-2 with solid truth based on how the bible presents this verse.

I look forward to your commentary. Please take time to take the poll when finished reading the short article.

God Bless
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01-26-2010, 11:00 PM (This post was last modified: 01-26-2010 11:17 PM by mythbusterbabylon.)
Post: #2
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
(01-26-2010 09:58 PM)todd_vetter33 Wrote:  I want to share a new discovery with you. In this short study on how Half truth can lead to false testimony and even Error, I ask three questions which you will find illustrated in Purple font about a quarter the way through this short article.

Share how you would have originally answered the three questions with others in this thread, but also share if you would have changed your answer by the end of this article.

Here is the link to the short article.
http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pd...%201-2.pdf

Let's see if you can answer three simple questions regarding Exodus 16:1-2 with solid truth based on how the bible presents this verse.

I look forward to your commentary. Please take time to take the poll when finished reading the short article.

God Bless

I completely answered incorrectly. That is an amazing eye opener study!!!! I would definitely change my answers after seeing the other half of the time specific truth given from the book of Numbers. Your study appears to be right on point and very well written.

I am very interested to get started on the other two studies you mentioned with the link references towards the end. I briefly glanced at the first link and you look like you have done your home work for sure. I really liked the Google earth Screen shots and pictures of what appears to be the actual locations.

A friend of mine at another forum referred me to this post and said it would be a shocker. He wasn't kidding. I'm looking forward to getting to know the folks at this forum now that I registered. I wanted to respond to this post!

Very Very well done!

Very impressed!

Mythbuster
You make a very credible case for the Original Passover Lamb being slain on a Wednesday. What made you think to even determine what day of the week the Passover Lamb was slain?
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01-26-2010, 11:27 PM (This post was last modified: 01-26-2010 11:38 PM by todd_vetter33.)
Post: #3
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
To answer your question as to why I would search this out regarding the passover lamb is because of the controversy surrounding the duration of time from crucifixion to resurrection, also because the bible does not record the events in the week prior to Christs death with solid accurate truth. The passover contains a 4 day time specific prophecy concerning the Lamb and Jesus claimed to fulfill all things in the Laws of Moses. So Jesus had to fulfill this 4 day time specific prophecy and History should reveal evidence that he did otherwise the whole story is Fable. Currently the bible is not clear on the events of the last week of Christ's life, and it does not illustrate Christ being chosen by the people on the Tenth day. Peices of historical testimony not in the bible do illustrate that Jesus did fulfill the 4 day time specific prophecy and it could only be fulfilled if the Lamb and Jesus was slain on a Wednesday.

If you have ever searched mulitple forums long enought you come across differing theories for days of the week for when the Crucifixion occured. Even who websites are dedicated to portraying their perception of Speculation for the crucifixion event. Some say Wednesday, someThursday, and the traditional majority Friday.

I found that all the greater majority of the prophecies and historical record appear to point to a Wednesday Crucifixion if Jesus did in fact fulfill all things in the Laws of Moses. The second link in the original article posting will detail most of my findings in that document but I recommend checking out the historical references.

They paint a picture of what the 2nd and 3rd century councils had to deal with in their day and why we are all spiritual decendants of choices they made when they built the bible to be what it is today.

Most beleive they have come out of Babyon (interesting Name by the way) by leaving the Catholic church but I have found they are still bound to Catholic doctrine if they have not found the spirit of God. The doctrine of God is spirit and truth. As you have come to understand from the original post. The bible can lead to false understandings and the entire Christian world bares witness of this by being devided docternally. These forums also bare witness since discord is the end result of a lie and all here use the bible to define their understandings.

I use the prophecies to define perception and do not reject history since God's word (prophecy) is a light to the history.

Take your time to go through the study at this link... It's very detailed and there is alot of information that will also be considered controvercial but every page presents a truth based on what is presented and no time specific aspect of the death and resurrection is left out but explained by the overall context of the study by the time you get to page 37.

Hope you enjoy this study and May the spirit of truth from God guide you as you test all things and keep that which is good.

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pd...ection.pdf

Very respectfully,

Todd
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01-27-2010, 10:32 PM
Post: #4
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
We Gnostic Christians do not use the Bible as sole reference to knowledge of God. How could we when the New Testament doesn't even include our foundational Gospel of Thomas?

As for nit-picking about Passover dates, why do it when the whole Exodus story has been shown to be bogus in the first place with no Moses and no great horde of Hebrews wandering around the desert for 40 years, and no Sinai Covenant. All fictions as Israeli archeologists searching for decades for any historical traces of such a mass movement have told us. Same with the mythical fabulously rich Kingdom of David and Solomon, no traces of any buildings or Solomon's Temple, unlike the real artifacts in solid stone that ancient civilizations left behind instead of stories...
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01-27-2010, 10:54 PM (This post was last modified: 01-28-2010 03:49 AM by todd_vetter33.)
Post: #5
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
(01-27-2010 10:32 PM)biomystic Wrote:  We Gnostic Christians do not use the Bible as sole reference to knowledge of God. How could we when the New Testament doesn't even include our foundational Gospel of Thomas?

As for nit-picking about Passover dates, why do it when the whole Exodus story has been shown to be bogus in the first place with no Moses and no great horde of Hebrews wandering around the desert for 40 years, and no Sinai Covenant. All fictions as Israeli archeologists searching for decades for any historical traces of such a mass movement have told us. Same with the mythical fabulously rich Kingdom of David and Solomon, no traces of any buildings or Solomon's Temple, unlike the real artifacts in solid stone that ancient civilizations left behind instead of stories...

You must not have taken time to view the second link which gives ample evidence that the story of Moses did occur. You just gave Gnostics a very bad name and also gave a perfect example of one who builds a perception of understanding on half the truth. Though the written story is part of the truth, the historical evidence recently discovered is the other half. Had you know about what is presented in this next link. Would you speak differently?

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pd...Theory.pdf

You may want to view this one to the end. It illustrates very clearly with pictures of physical evidence that you just told a lie to anyone and everyone reading this thread.

Did the Gospel of Thomas teach you it was ok to tell a lie in a state of ignorance just because you personally lacked evidence and wisdom that the story is certainly true?

God Bless
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01-28-2010, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 01-28-2010 07:44 AM by biomystic.)
Post: #6
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
I don't know about you but I rely on expert opinions about archeological evidence, especially archeological opinions of experts in the field where archeological research has been conducted for decades. Read these expert opinions and then tell us whose religious traditions have taught their believers to believe in lies.

"Phantom Wanderers

Two archeologists say the escape from Egypt into Sinai seems highly unlikely.

By Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman

(Excerpted from "The Bible Unearthed," The Free Press, 2001)

"In the 13th century, Egypt was at the peak of its authority—the dominant power in the world. The Egyptian grip over Canaan was firm: Egyptian strongholds were built in various places in the country, and Egyptian officials administered the affairs of the region. In the el-Amarna letters, which are dated a century before, we are told that a unit of 50 Egyptian soldiers was big enough to pacify unrest in Canaan.

Throughout the period of the New Kingdom, large Egyptian armies marched through Canaan to the north, as far as the Euphrates in Syria. Therefore, the main overland road that went from the delta along the coast of northern Sinai to Gaza and then into the heart of Canaan was of utmost importance to the pharaonic regime.

The most potentially vulnerable stretch of road--which crossed the arid and dangerous desert of northern Sinai between the delta and Gaza--was the most protected. A sophisticated system of Egyptian forts, granaries and wells was established at a day's march distance along the entire length of the road, which was called the Ways of Horus.

These road stations enabled the imperial army to cross the Sinai peninsula conveniently and efficiently when necessary. The annals of the great Egyptian conqueror Thumose III tell us that he marched with his troops from the eastern delta to Gaza, a distance about 250 kilometers, in ten days. A relief from the day of Ramesses II's father, Pharaoh Seti I (from around 1300 B.C.), shows the forts and water reservoirs in the form of an early map that traces the route from the eastern delta to the southwestern border of Canaan.

The remains of these forts were uncovered in the course of archeological investigations in northern Sinai by Eliezer Oren of Ben Gurion University, in the 1970s. Oren discovered that each of these road stations, closely corresponding to the sites designated on the ancient Egyptian relief, comprised three elements: a strong fort made of bricks in the typical Egyptian military architecture, storage installations for food provisions, and a water reservoir.

Putting aside the possibility of divinely inspired miracles, one can hardly accept the idea of a flight of a large group of slaves fro Egypt through the heavily guarded border fortifications into the desert and then into Canaan in the time of such a formidable Egyptian presence. Any group escaping Egypt against the will of the pharoah would have easily been tracked down not only by an Egyptian army chasing it from the delta, but also by the Egyptian soldiers in the forts in northern Sinai and in Canaan.

Indeed, the biblical narrative hits at the dangers of attempting to flee by the coastal route. Thus the only alternative would be to turn into the desolate wastes of the Sinai peninsula. But the possibility of a large group of people wandering in the Sinai peninsula is also contradicted by archeology.

According to the biblical account, the children of Israel wandered in the desert and mountains of the Sinai peninsula, moving around and camping in different places, for a full 40 years. Even if a number of fleeing Israelites (given in the text as 600,000) is wildly exaggerated, or can be interpreted as representing smaller numbers of people, the text describes the survival of a great number of people under the most challenging conditions. Some archaeological traces of their generation-long wandering in the Sinai should be apparent. However, except for the Egyptian forts along the northern coast, not a single campsite or sign of occupation from the time of Ramesses II and his immediate predecessors and successors has ever been found in Sinai.
Reply con't...

"It has not been for lack of trying. Repeated archaeological surveys in all regions of the peninsula, including the mountainous area around the traditional site of Mount Sinai, near Saint Catherine's Monastery, has yielded only negative evidence: not a single sherd, no structure, not a single house, no trace of an ancient encampment.

One may argue that a relatively small band of wandering Israelites cannot be expected to leave material remains behind. But modern archeological techniques are quite capable of tracing even the very meager remains of hunter-gatherers and pastoral nomads all over the world. Indeed, the archaeological record from the Sinai peninsula discloses evidence for pastoral activity in such eras as the third millennium B.C.E. and the Hellenistic and Byzantine periods. There is simply no such evidence at the supposed time of the Exodus in the 13th century B.C.E.

The conclusion--that the Exodus did not happen at the time and in the manner described in the Bible--seems irrefutable when we examine the evidence at specific sites where the children of Israel were said to have camped for extended periods during their wandering in the desert (Numbers 33) and where some archaeological indication--if present--would almost certainly be found.

According to the biblical narrative, the children of Israel camped at Kadesh-barnea for 38 of the 40 years of the wanderings. The general location of this place is clear from the description of the southern border of the land of Israel in Numbers 34. It has been identified by archaeologists with the large and well-watered oasis of Ein el-Quedeirat in eastern Sinai, on the border of modern Israel and Egypt. The name Kadesh was probably preserved over the centuries in the name of a nearby smaller spring called Ein Qadis. A small mound with the remains of a Late Iron Age fort stands at the center of this oasis. Yet repeated excavations and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided the slightest evidence for activity in the Late Bronze Age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees."

From 'The Bible Unearthed' by Israel Finkelstein & Neil Asher Silberman.


"As Rabbis Face Facts, Bible Tales Are Wilting

By MICHAEL MASSING

Tony Cenicola/The New York Times

("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), a new Torah and commentary, offers new findings in biblical research, which cast doubt on stories like that in Raphael's "Crossing the Red Sea."

Excerpts From 'Etz Hayim' Essays (March 9, 2002):

"Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions — the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years — have gained wide acceptance among non- Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity — until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document."
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01-28-2010, 05:23 PM (This post was last modified: 01-28-2010 05:58 PM by todd_vetter33.)
Post: #7
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
(01-28-2010 07:43 AM)biomystic Wrote:  Indeed, the biblical narrative hits at the dangers of attempting to flee by the coastal route. Thus the only alternative would be to turn into the desolate wastes of the Sinai peninsula. But the possibility of a large group of people wandering in the Sinai peninsula is also contradicted by archeology.

According to the biblical account, the children of Israel wandered in the desert and mountains of the Sinai peninsula, moving around and camping in different places, for a full 40 years. Even if a number of fleeing Israelites (given in the text as 600,000) is wildly exaggerated, or can be interpreted as representing smaller numbers of people, the text describes the survival of a great number of people under the most challenging conditions. Some archaeological traces of their generation-long wandering in the Sinai should be apparent. However, except for the Egyptian forts along the northern coast, not a single campsite or sign of occupation from the time of Ramesses II and his immediate predecessors and successors has ever been found in Sinai.
Reply con't...

Your greatest flaw was believing that the written testimony of men can contain no error. The Sinai Peninsula was the location determined by a Roman Mystic who chose unwisely.

The land of Midian is in the Saudi Arabia peninsula and many of the locations referred to in the Exodus story have been found and can be seen from Google earth as well as pictures taken from People who have visited the biblical documented sites.

Not my fault your sources have defined your perception incorrectly and have been outdated by recent discoveries as well as built on lies due to lack of evidence and false testimony in the past.

Were you loose credibility as a person with the capacity to speak truth of this matter is that you assumed my graphs and pictures were in reference to the Sinai peninsula where no evidence has been found that would establish credibility to the historical record. If you looked in the right location you will find that there is ample evidence to prove the Exodus did occur.

To say it did not occur. You will have to go to the locations that I have been too and taken pictures of; to take additional pictures of same land marks. Your pictures will have to reveal a mountain that does not have a blackened peak. Your pictures will have to reveal no palm tree's or 12 wells at elim. Your pictures will have to reveal there is no split Rock in Horeb right where I found it to be, based on the bible testimony.

You may want to check the pics that I provided at this link before you make yourself look even more silly to the folks who have taken the time to review this short study.

http://www.thedeathandresurection.com/pd...Theory.pdf

I recommend pages 4-16

It's for this reason that this thread addresses bible Errancy and how it has led to your confusion as well as the confusion of Christian denominationalism as a whole.

God Bless
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01-28-2010, 06:04 PM (This post was last modified: 01-28-2010 06:05 PM by mythbusterbabylon.)
Post: #8
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
WOW! Todd,

Take it easy on biomystic, years of traditional lies are difficult to see past when you let lies define the perception. It's like being raised a muslim. All you know to be truth is Islam and there is no greater truth due to what has defined your tradition of understanding.

Another example would be a man who has never seen a globe of the earth. If never told the Earth was round. One would or could assume the Earth was flat if he didn't know better.

If he lived his whole life believing the Earth was flat, It would be very difficult for him to accept the earth was in fact round.

I have to say the pictures are impressive and i have since downloaded google earth. With a high definition monitor. The land marks can be seen just as you have illustrated.

Hopfully biomystic will take the time to review what you have provided. It's very well put together. How did you get to visit the sites in the regon. I have read other site on this topic and the few who have been there said they had to go in secret. Some have even been jailed.

Mythbuster
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01-28-2010, 06:50 PM
Post: #9
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
(01-28-2010 06:04 PM)mythbusterbabylon Wrote:  WOW! Todd,

Take it easy on biomystic, years of traditional lies are difficult to see past when you let lies define the perception. It's like being raised a muslim. All you know to be truth is Islam and there is no greater truth due to what has defined your tradition of understanding.

Another example would be a man who has never seen a globe of the earth. If never told the Earth was round. One would or could assume the Earth was flat if he didn't know better.

If he lived his whole life believing the Earth was flat, It would be very difficult for him to accept the earth was in fact round.

I have to say the pictures are impressive and i have since downloaded google earth. With a high definition monitor. The land marks can be seen just as you have illustrated.

Hopfully biomystic will take the time to review what you have provided. It's very well put together. How did you get to visit the sites in the regon. I have read other site on this topic and the few who have been there said they had to go in secret. Some have even been jailed.

Mythbuster

I guess I could take it easier on Him. It amazes me when people try to comment on a thread that they do not take the time to review in full. Then spout off information that has been clearly outdated.

His understanding of the historical evidence for the exodus is much like the example you used regarding men who though the earth was flat.

It's been superceeded by facts and findings. Hopefully he will take the time to review what I have shared so that he will not embarrass himself any further.

God Bless
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01-28-2010, 10:07 PM
Post: #10
RE: Can Bible Errancy Exist? The Scripture of Time says yes
I went to the site and see how believers could believe the sea of reeds crossing was in error. But frankly, I will trust trained archeologists over an amateur who also claimed to have discovered Noah's Ark, the Ark of the Covenant, the Tower of Babel and the true site of Mt. Sinai.

There's another relocation theory of Biblical events which places OT sites in Saudi Arabia and the Asir region next to Yemen as the true homeland of the Jews.

The main thing about the Exodus story that makes it so unbelievable is the idea of hundreds of thousands of former captive Hebrews existing in a desert for 40 years. The logistics of food provision just do not support such a feat and only true believers could swallow the manna from heaven mythology.
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