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Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
05-20-2017, 02:02 AM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2017 12:46 PM by %mindless_detector%.)
Post: #1
Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
[Image: n2goBh4.jpg]

I've wondered for a while now why theists pray for things.

Isn't God's plan already perfect?

Do they expect God's perfect plan to be altered by human prayer?

Do they not realize that they are undermining their God's perfect plan by asking for changes?

Please share your thoughts theists.
Atheists can chime in too.

Edit:
Note that prayer to change one's desire, is still attempt to change God's supposedly perfect plan, which included one's desires prior to prayer.
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05-20-2017, 03:24 AM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2017 03:54 PM by Anglican.)
Post: #2
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
No.

Next question?

There is no way God would to revise his intentions to suit our convenience. The hackneyed example atheists always bring up is of both sides in a war praying to the same God for victory. Well, which side will win depends exclusively upon God's plans for his creation.

Prayer is a way of communing with God, basically in the hope that your will is in accord with his, but in the expectation that he will work to change your desires if it isn't [in accord with his will].
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05-20-2017, 04:35 AM
Post: #3
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 03:24 AM)Anglican Wrote:  but in the expectation that he will work to change your desires if it isn't.

So God does micromanage?

Seems so futile - creating the whole universe with its infathomable dimensions, and then coming to the most insignificant of rocks, listen to some whining, and help some individuals.

He indeed works in mysterious ways Wink

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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05-20-2017, 05:14 AM
Post: #4
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 04:35 AM)Herminator Wrote:  
(05-20-2017 03:24 AM)Anglican Wrote:  but in the expectation that he will work to change your desires if it isn't.

So God does micromanage?

Seems so futile - creating the whole universe with its infathomable dimensions, and then coming to the most insignificant of rocks, listen to some whining, and help some individuals.

He indeed works in mysterious ways Wink

You can call it micro management if you want. Since I am a Calvinist, I will consider it my privilege to quote the Westminster Confession of Faith to you:

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

In other words, although God has preordained whatsoever comes to pass, nobody is holding a gun to somebody's head when they sin, and they remain responsible for that sin.

Do I expect that to satisfy a Christian who is not a Calvinist, let alone an atheist? Not really.
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05-20-2017, 06:14 AM
Post: #5
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 05:14 AM)Anglican Wrote:  
(05-20-2017 04:35 AM)Herminator Wrote:  
(05-20-2017 03:24 AM)Anglican Wrote:  but in the expectation that he will work to change your desires if it isn't.

So God does micromanage?

Seems so futile - creating the whole universe with its infathomable dimensions, and then coming to the most insignificant of rocks, listen to some whining, and help some individuals.

He indeed works in mysterious ways Wink

You can call it micro management if you want. Since I am a Calvinist, I will consider it my privilege to quote the Westminster Confession of Faith to you:

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

In other words, although God has preordained whatsoever comes to pass, nobody is holding a gun to somebody's head when they sin, and they remain responsible for that sin.

Do I expect that to satisfy a Christian who is not a Calvinist, let alone an atheist? Not really.

I'm just amazed by what I described in my second sentence. For someone who created an immense universe, this mingling in petty local stuff seems futile and hence extremely unlikely.

Just my two cents - and my amazement doesn't need to be satisfied, which is what religious quotes don't tend to do anyway...

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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05-20-2017, 12:44 PM
Post: #6
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 03:24 AM)Anglican Wrote:  Prayer is a way of communing with God, basically in the hope that your will is in accord with his, but in the expectation that he will work to change your desires if it isn't.

Please reconsider your comment closely.

Do you realize that by praying to change your desires, you are praying to change God's plan regardless?
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05-20-2017, 01:02 PM
Post: #7
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 12:44 PM)%mindless_detector% Wrote:  
(05-20-2017 03:24 AM)Anglican Wrote:  Prayer is a way of communing with God, basically in the hope that your will is in accord with his, but in the expectation that he will work to change your desires if it isn't.

Please reconsider your comment closely.

Do you realize that by praying to change your desires, you are praying to change God's plan regardless?

Please reread it.
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05-20-2017, 01:38 PM
Post: #8
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 01:02 PM)Anglican Wrote:  Please reread it.

Why?

Are you saying that your desires are always in line with God's will?
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05-20-2017, 03:48 PM
Post: #9
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 01:38 PM)%mindless_detector% Wrote:  
(05-20-2017 01:02 PM)Anglican Wrote:  Please reread it.

Why?

Are you saying that your desires are always in line with God's will?

I have added a phrase to the end of it, so that perhaps you will get the message you should have got on a first reading - assuming that your native language is English.
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05-20-2017, 05:14 PM
Post: #10
RE: Can prayer change God's PERFECT plan?
(05-20-2017 03:24 AM)Anglican Wrote:  Prayer is a way of communing with God, basically in the hope that your will is in accord with his, but in the expectation that he will work to change your desires if it isn't [in accord with his will].

It doesn't seem that the portion in brackets above changes anything.

I don't know why you would first agree that God's plan can't be changed by human prayer, and then at the very same time state that "God works towards" changing his plans i.e."to change human desires".

Does God's will then invalidate his supposedly perfect plan? (i.e. plan not perfect after all)

Why do you think mentioning God's will suddenly removes the instance that God's plans are not changed? Did you forget that you said God works to change human desire?

Are you saying your God's will is not strong enough to produce a perfect plan?
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