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Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
02-17-2010, 11:30 AM
Post: #1
Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
Circumcision was to be the external marker of the covenant between God and the prophet Abraham and this is recorded in Genesis in the Bible. The first Christian Church Council in Jerusalem, held in approximately 50 AD decreed that circumcision was not a requirement for Gentile converts, prior to that all Christians also had circumcision. This became known as the ‘Apostolic Decree’ in the Christian history and is one of the first acts differentiating early Christianity from Rabbinic Judaism. The Coptic Christians continue to practice circumcision. At any rate, all the Muslims and Jews get circumcised.

According to the recent statistical and prevalence data circumcision has a significant preventive effect against HIV, at least in Africa. The following is what WHO site says:

"There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence. Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes." For further details go to:

http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircum...index.html

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-17-2010, 11:50 AM
Post: #2
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
Paul's problem with circumcision was that requiring it of adults in an era of limited anesthetic availability was not good for recruiting. They did not even have any ice to put on it! Sad

Of course it was much more than that. It was the entire set of 613 mitvot that tended to make gentiles think twice.

I do agree with you about the health issue. Many hospitals used to perform circumcision as a matter of course because of perceived health risks. Back in the baby boom era, Mary Immaculate, a Catholic hospital in New York City, had a Jewish mohel on retainer because it was cheaper than a doctor's bill for the same service. New York City was ecumenical long before Vatican II.

In case anyone is wondering, bris milah is normally to be performed for a Jewish baby eight days after birth. But a mohel can perform a circumcision (minus rituals) on a non-Jewish baby on the second day as hospitals generally prefer.
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02-17-2010, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 02-17-2010 12:54 PM by Parousia.)
Post: #3
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
Some additional info:

Quote:Recently the AAP [American Association of Pediatricians] declared circumcision an unnecessary procedure, therefore classifying it as cosmetic, which has prompted many insurance companies to deny coverage for newborn circumcisions. This ruling particularly had an effect on Medicaid coverage, with 16 states creating restrictions on Medicaid-covered circumcisions unless it is determined to be medically necessary. As more states follow this trend, it will become up to the individual parents to make the financial commitment to perform this procedure, which may lead to an overall decrease in circumcisions across the US.

However, when you weigh the cost of a circumcision procedure [about $1750] against the cost to treat medical conditions that may develop later in life as a result of not performing a circumcision, you not only break even, but might even come out ahead! Treatment for conditions such as Urinary Tract Infections (UTIs), phimosis, balanoposthitis, penile cancer, prostate cancer and even HIV/AIDS, are extremely expensive/costly and require long term care, which cost significantly more money than performing a circumcision at the very beginning.

http://www.thelaboroflove.com/articles/w...sion-cost/
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02-17-2010, 01:07 PM
Post: #4
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
(02-17-2010 12:53 PM)Parousia Wrote:  When you weigh the cost of a circumcision procedure [about $1750] against the cost to treat medical conditions that may develop later in life as a result of not performing a circumcision, you not only break even, but might even come out ahead! Treatment for conditions such as Urinary Tract Infections (UTIs), phimosis, balanoposthitis, penile cancer, prostate cancer and even HIV/AIDS, are extremely expensive/costly and require long term care, which cost significantly more money than performing a circumcision at the very beginning.
http://www.thelaboroflove.com/articles/w...sion-cost/
[/quote]

Parousia thank you for bringing out this information. The information by WHO is very powerful, "There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%." Whatever other bodies may have to suggest including American Association of Pediatricians, will be miniscule in comparison.

I think Jews and Muslims will be more than happy to let our Christian brethren borrow this teaching from us, additionally it may save the Christian sisters from cervical cancer also. Some day I will make a list of all the teachings Islam has loaned to Christianity without interest!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-18-2010, 09:03 AM
Post: #5
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
(02-17-2010 01:07 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  I think Jews and Muslims will be more than happy to let our Christian brethren borrow this teaching from us, additionally it may save the Christian sisters from cervical cancer also. Some day I will make a list of all the teachings Islam has loaned to Christianity without interest!

Islam had nothing to do with it. The Jews got it from the ancients. Western civilization got it from the Jews.

Quote:The modern use of Hebrew circumcision as a medicalized practice dates from about 1865 in England and about 1870 in the US. The procedure accepted for medical use essentially was the Jewish peri'ah [explained in detail in the article]
http://www.cirp.org/library/history/

Muslim circumcision practices are quite different. Are you proposing that we follow Muslim practices with respect to circumcision?

Quote:Although most Muslim fathers want – insist –that their sons should "look the same" as them, Islam does not impose an obligation on parents to circumcise their children. Furthermore, its recommendations about circumcision apply to women as much as men. The Koran, the Moslem bible, makes no mention of circumcision at all, but the prophet Mohammed is reported to have stated that "Circumcision is a sunnah for the men and a makrumah for the women". (Note the reference to men and women: nothing about boys and girls.) The term sunnah means customary or traditional; the term makrumah means meritorious. The most you could conclude is that circumcision was customary for men and meritorious for women, and thus desirable for both but obligatory for neither.
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/ind...7&Itemid=0
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02-18-2010, 01:22 PM
Post: #6
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
The Muslim circumcision is in following of the Abrahamic tradtion and is only for men. In this instance the Islamic teaching can be read in Genesis, in the Bible, without any change.

There is no female circumcision in Islam. It may be a local custom in some areas and is against the teachings of Islam.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-18-2010, 02:04 PM
Post: #7
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
(02-18-2010 01:22 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  The Muslim circumcision is in following of the Abrahamic tradtion and is only for men. In this instance the Islamic teaching can be read in Genesis, in the Bible, without any change.

There is no female circumcision in Islam. It may be a local custom in some areas and is against the teachings of Islam.

Here is an article that discusses the topic of female circumcision and Islam and explains the real story much better. (Warning: this article uses anatomically correct language.) What is meant by 'female circumcision' is not at all what people might imagine and is not really a part of Islam. It is neither required nor forbidden.
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02-18-2010, 03:39 PM
Post: #8
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
(02-18-2010 02:04 PM)Parousia Wrote:  
(02-18-2010 01:22 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  The Muslim circumcision is in following of the Abrahamic tradtion and is only for men. In this instance the Islamic teaching can be read in Genesis, in the Bible, without any change.

There is no female circumcision in Islam. It may be a local custom in some areas and is against the teachings of Islam.

Here is an article that discusses the topic of female circumcision and Islam and explains the real story much better. (Warning: this article uses anatomically correct language.) What is meant by 'female circumcision' is not at all what people might imagine and is not really a part of Islam. It is neither required nor forbidden.

Why is it that many barbaric traditions are upheld by Muslim believers who then when pressed for explanation will say the Quran forbids these things. Yet we see Muslims practicing them with no huge outcry of protest from fellow Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot help but assume Islam belief doesn't share the concerns of modern liberal democracies about human rights.
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02-18-2010, 04:56 PM (This post was last modified: 02-18-2010 05:11 PM by Parousia.)
Post: #9
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
(02-18-2010 03:39 PM)biomystic Wrote:  Why is it that many barbaric traditions are upheld by Muslim believers who then when pressed for explanation will say the Quran forbids these things. Yet we see Muslims practicing them with no huge outcry of protest from fellow Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot help but assume Islam belief doesn't share the concerns of modern liberal democracies about human rights.

Did you read the article I linked? What is being called female circumcision is not at all what you think it is.
More info from that article to clarify what it is saying.

Quote:It is obvious that the second and third procedures [mutilation] were never mandated, encouraged or even consented to by the Prophet (P). They even violate a known rule in Shari'ah prohibiting the cutting off of any part of the human body except for unavoidable reasons (e.g. medical treatment, trimming nails or hair, or for an explicitly specified reason such as male circumcision). Such necessity or need does not exist in female circumcision. Nothing justifies genital mutilation. In fact, no mutilation is allowed by Islam even in the battlefield. Not only are these two procedures unjustifiable, they are brutal, inhumane and in violation of Islam.
...
While any form of female circumcision is already legally banned in some countries and may be banned in others in the future, it is not suggested here that this is the only option. In societies and cultures where the practice is well entrenched and socio-cultural pressures for it are great abrupt legal banning may not end the practice. It may cause it to be practiced "underground" and under more problematic circumstances. However the problem is serious enough that some action is needed. A starting point, perhaps, is to begin by educationg the masses in countries where female circumcision is commonly practiced. All possible media should be used in the process. The contents of this appendix may serve as an outline of such an educational program, or it is so hoped. In any case, the conclusion which appears to be certain is that there is no single text of the Qur'an and Hadeeth which requires female circumcision.

http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html
(Emphasis in the original)
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02-23-2010, 10:06 PM
Post: #10
RE: Circumcision and HIV infection: another reason why to let go of St. Paul
How come most Americans get circumcised if it has nothing to do with religion, I heard that the health effects (up until now) were nonexistent.
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