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Creation of the universe according to the Bible
08-07-2009, 11:43 AM
Post: #1
Creation of the universe according to the Bible
The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book,
Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned -
It says…
‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day.
Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24
hour period of six days.

Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…
‘Light was created on the first day.’
Genesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’.
How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific.

Point No.3
Further, the, Bible says
Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?

Point No..4,
Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.
Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific.

Point No. 5,
the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.

How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?

Point No.6,
that the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night.
The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’
And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses –
Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating,
that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction
with established scientific knowledge that we have.


you may say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually
refers to epocs - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly
states 24 hours, it indicates. But even if I use the concordance
approach - no problem. I agree - Yet they will only be able to solve
the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day
‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet they cannot solve.


You may say that … ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’

I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs -

If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining
4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only
Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific.

???????????

1-creation of the Universe in six 24 hours days ?
2-Light before it's source ?
3-day created before earth ?
4-earth created before sun ?
5-vegetation created before sun ?
6-Light of the moon is it's own light ?
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08-07-2009, 12:56 PM
Post: #2
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
And I would like to say that these six reasons are only the tip of the iceberg. There is also the size of the universe, and the time required for it to be that size. There is the time required for light to travel from the furthest galaxies, whose distance can be measured by a wide variety of independent scientific methods. There is all the evidence we have geologically for the creation of the earth, which did not have water at all for a very, very long time (thus repudiating Genesis, which claims it was all ocean and then land was raised.) And of course there is all the evidence we have for an evolutionary abiogenesis, not the least of which is evolution observed in the lab, and the amazing evidences of the fossil record.

In the face of the overwhelming evidence, there are two options as I see it.

1. The bible is not literally true, and must be understood as myth (which is the position of many christians.) While I would then say that this seriously throws into doubt the rest of the bible, the parts that christianity is based off of, that then becomes a philosophical argument rather than a scientific one so we will leave it alone for now.

2. God made the world to include an elaborate deception that would make us think it was old and arose naturally, to test our faith. Well, consider mine tested. For that matter, which to you think more likely? That god would go into such detail making the stars, fossils, planet, and the very laws of physics an elaborate deception to tempt people from believing a 3,000 year old book, or that god would have made a world that clearly illustrates an ancient, natural order to things and then made a 3,000 year old book full of lies? I mean, if we accept that god deceives us to test our faith, my money is on the bible being the deception, not the entire universe.

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08-07-2009, 04:40 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2009 04:40 PM by Parousia.)
Post: #3
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
(08-07-2009 12:56 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  1. The bible is not literally true, and must be understood as myth (which is the position of many christians.) While I would then say that this seriously throws into doubt the rest of the bible, the parts that christianity is based off of, that then becomes a philosophical argument rather than a scientific one so we will leave it alone for now.

Rather than myth, think poetry. The basic idea of Genesis 1, which can be seen as fundamental to Jewish thought, is that there is a single transcendent God who is creator of and lord over everything, that the world is a lawful, orderly place and that man occupies a special position in the world. That was pretty original and rather heady stuff way back then.
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08-07-2009, 05:21 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2009 05:22 PM by Annolennar.)
Post: #4
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
Hi derprinz, forgive my bluntness, but you've entirely missed the intent of Genesis. Unfortunately, about 11-12% of America does as well and takes it literally. Luckily, America is exceptionally fundamentalist, and it may surprise you to know that most Christians are not literalists (both in America, and even more so globally and historically). Public universities often offer basic Hebrew Bible courses that can clear up misconceptions like this.

Genesis is not intended as a mythical creation account to be taken literally. To properly understand its context we need to realize that it was (and still is, though we don't usually think of it this way) a part of the Torah (the "law" or "instruction" portion of the Hebrew Tanakh).

In that sense, the first section of Genesis (and to some extent the entire book) has two purposes relevant to this discussion.

First, it was actually intended (in the context of the cultures and religions that co-existed with early Judaism) to be anti-mythical. Most of the contemporary religions went to great lengths describing legendary "ages of the gods" before mankind, ascribing both anthropomorphic and divine traits to natural forces and phenomenon such as lightning, the sun, and the moon, and imposing ritual laws based on those notions; the Genesis creation account, as it was originally understood, was meant to establish a "natural" worldview, as opposed to the prevailingly popular "supernatural" one. That is, rather than being beholden to a host of deities that were bound to the world, often behaving similar to humans and seeming to be very "un-divine", Genesis is meant to show that the world works according to patterns that are no more divine in and of themselves than we are. In short, it is meant to paint the "gods" of nearby cultures as being no more divine than humans, and just as much the creation of a single God.

Another major point of the Genesis account is to show that creation happens in accord with patterns - a sort of divine logic. The six days of creation are not a scientific account, but rather one that shows the relationships between creations and each other, and between creations and Creator - in fact, there is significant reason to believe that creation in Genesis is not meant to be understood as "ex nihilo".

I'm not sure if you're interested in all the poetic details, or the patterns that are intended, so I won't go into detail unless you'd like to; but suffice it to say that a literal, scientific interpretation of the creation account is not what the biblical author intended, nor is that how it was originally understood. Biblical literalism arose as a fundamentalist reaction to the secular humanism of the Enlightenment.

Edit: Parousia beat me to it. Smile

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08-07-2009, 09:59 PM
Post: #5
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
I'd disagree that it was original. The Egyptians had the concept of an ordered universe created by deities long before. The Hindus have a similar concept.

Indeed, the evolution of the Hebrew god throughout the bible is pretty much preceded every step of the way. By the time the Torah was written, not only did Egypt have a solid religion based on the concepts of ma'at (order and righteousness,) but they had even gone through a phase where they worshiped only one god (Aton) while acknowledging the presence of other gods that they did not worship. The Torah, likewise, maintains that there are other gods, but insists that only the Hebrew god be worshiped.

By the latter books of the Old Testament these concepts had changed into true monotheism, but not until after the exile in Persia, where they had a lovely religion called Zoroastrianism that taught exactly the same thing.

Jesus does have some uniqueness, no doubt owing to the fact that he was probably a real historic figure, but the mythology that surrounds his life is certainly not unique, having roots in a number of different religions, including the worship of mithras, yet more Egyptian ideals, and even some basic concepts from the Greeks, plus a dash of Babylonian mystery cult thrown in.

Now I'm not saying that the bible is a rip-off. No. But these were not unique concepts when the bible was written. They were not invented for the bible, and despite what christians like to say Christ was far from the only religious figure to rise from the dead and ascend directly to the gods (Osiris, for one. Hercules for another).

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08-10-2009, 03:58 PM
Post: #6
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
(08-07-2009 09:59 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  I'd disagree that it was original. The Egyptians had the concept of an ordered universe created by deities long before. The Hindus have a similar concept.

Indeed, the evolution of the Hebrew god throughout the bible is pretty much preceded every step of the way. By the time the Torah was written, not only did Egypt have a solid religion based on the concepts of ma'at (order and righteousness,) but they had even gone through a phase where they worshiped only one god (Aton) while acknowledging the presence of other gods that they did not worship. The Torah, likewise, maintains that there are other gods, but insists that only the Hebrew god be worshiped.

Whoa, this is not a Bible versus everything else argument.

I said the ideas were new and indeed they were. Some of them crop up in various places, Genesis being one. The form of the stories in Genesis are clearly heavily influenced by Babylonian mythology, but the slant of those stories is quite different, being as you say closer to Egyptian ideas. In fact the similarity of the basic ideas of Judaism – a dominant or unique Creator God and specific commandments given by that God, and even the notion of a written religion – to the upper class Amen-Ra religion of the later half of the second millenium BCE, raises the intriguing possibility of a Prince of Egypt as the actual founder of what would become Judaism.

(08-07-2009 09:59 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  By the latter books of the Old Testament these concepts had changed into true monotheism, but not until after the exile in Persia, where they had a lovely religion called Zoroastrianism that taught exactly the same thing.

Zoroastrianism is technically a monotheism, but it also includes the pre-Zoroastrian deities as ‘immortals’. In particular, it has a God (Ahura Mazda, aka Ormazd) pitted against a divine-like but evil opponent (Angra Mainyu aka Ahriman). Sounds like God and the Devil, right? Except that the later idea of Satan as an evil adversary simply does not exist in the OT. This idea seems to have appeared not much earlier than Christianity itself, being foreshadowed perhaps in the Book of Daniel, probably written around 165 BCE.

Zoroastrianism also embraced the ideas of reward and punishment in an afterlife. Jewish afterlife in the OT is a shadowy sort of thing and has apparently nothing to do with righteous living. This is also a major difference from Egyptian religion. Again the idea of judgment and reward/punishment seems to have entered Jewish thought around the time of the writing of Daniel during the brutal persecution of the Jews under the Seleucids. This is where apocalypticism, with its notion of vindication of suffering by a final judgment, comes from. The basic idea of apocalyptic vindication is: “Just wait, you will get yours!”

(08-07-2009 09:59 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Jesus does have some uniqueness, no doubt owing to the fact that he was probably a real historic figure, but the mythology that surrounds his life is certainly not unique, having roots in a number of different religions, including the worship of mithras, yet more Egyptian ideals, and even some basic concepts from the Greeks, plus a dash of Babylonian mystery cult thrown in.

Christianity has essentially nothing to do with Mithras. The Mithraic mystery cult that bears a nominal resemblance to Christianity simply did not exist until the 1st century CE. It is often confused with the worship of Mithra, who does bear a modest resemblance to Jesus but really not all that much. Mithra is a sort of god from the supposedly strictly monotheistic Zoroastrian religion. However the roots of Christianity are strongly Jewish but with some pagan trappings borrowed from – wait for it – the Dionysian mystery cults! This was the most likely common affiliation of the gentile converts that Paul specialized in. The tribulations, sacrifice and resurrection of Dionysus with its implication of the hope of resurrection for the faithful; the ‘eating of the god’, the association of Dionysus with both bread and wine…sound a little familiar?

P.S. Nobody better mention December 25. It was not associated with any sun god until the 2nd century and not associated with Christianity until the 4th century.
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08-10-2009, 04:35 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2009 04:40 PM by Raphael.)
Post: #7
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
And the underlying concept of alchemy is that there exists the macrocosm and the microcosm...and man existing as the bridge between them.

The inner and outer realms or universes...

So could the two distinct creation events in Genesis be a reflection of this belief?

Science later followed suit, and this archetypal truth manifested and remained consistent, by developing Relativity and Quantum realms.

namaste

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08-10-2009, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2009 05:14 PM by GTseng3.)
Post: #8
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
You don't need to associate it with a god. December 21st is the darkest day of the year. It's perfectly natural that a festival would spring up around that time in the Northern Hemisphere, taking one of two forms: A ceremony of appeasement to beat back darkness and bring back the sun, or a ceremony of rebirth to celebrate the waning of one year and the waxing of another.

Such things are natural due to the sun cycle. Insert your own deity to fit a theme, and voila! A religious ceremony that can be shared by almost everyone! Even the Hanukkah celebration involves lighting the darkness, though they take it a bit more literally.

Thanks for the info about Mithra and Zoroastrianism. The Mithra parts I sort of knew, though you provided many details. Zoroastrianism I have not studied in depth, so I appreciate the new knowledge. Still, as you pointed out, the idea is not unique when comparing Judeo-Christianity against everything else, it was instead a trend in religion in the civilized world at that time.

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08-19-2009, 08:14 AM
Post: #9
Big Grin RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
1-creation of the Universe in six 24 hours days ? personally i don't think that they where 24 hour days, as the bible contradicts this "Genisis 1:11 Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with seed in them, on the earth"; and it was so. And the earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, with seed in them, after their kind" we know that this takes longer than 24 hours
2-Light before it's source ? the sun was already there just covered (by cloud possibly)
3-day created before earth ? again what makes you think they are "earth days" and that a day cannot exist outside the context of earth, other explanations could be it was just a simple way of describing a period of time
4-earth created before sun ? again the sun was there, god removed the cloud to reveal the sun, moon and stars
5-vegetation created before sun ? this ties into question 2 and 4
6-Light of the moon is it's own light ? maybe just a way of saying that when Sun reflects off the moons surface it is a different type of light to the sun on its own.
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08-19-2009, 12:24 PM
Post: #10
RE: Creation of the universe according to the Bible
(08-07-2009 11:43 AM)derprinz Wrote:  The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book,
Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned -
It says…
‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day.
Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24
hour period of six days.


Genesis refers to six epochs of time….not 6x24hr periods of time.

A careful reading of the text shows this.

A Hebrew day is from evening to evening. Thus, at best, and using your flawed reasoning, you would have to take each “evening” and “morning” clause to mean 12hrs…not 24hrs.

Moreover, the seventh “day” was never closed-out as were the previous six.

We are still in the seventh “day”…..pretty long “day” wouldn’t you say…?
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