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Denying Belief
08-01-2011, 11:31 AM
Post: #1
Denying Belief
Apparently both the bible and quran claim that god will prevent some people from believing in him, close their ears and eyes to him, only allow those he wishes to believe in him actually believe. So it's really up to god whether we believe or not, we in fact have no say. Thank God.

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08-01-2011, 11:46 AM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2011 12:14 PM by StarStuff.)
Post: #2
RE: Denying Belief
(08-01-2011 11:31 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Thank God.

You're welcome.

To give a real answer: here's the real reason so many religions say this: everybody likes to be a persecuted yet righteous minority. Then they can blame everybody else for all their problems. Any religion which encourages this sort of thinking will be more likely to draw a lot of followers.

So if I tell you that god values your belief, and the reason other people don't believe in you is because they aren't as awesome as you and god closed their eyes and ears to THE TRUTH™, then hey, you can feel all happy and secure when other people say you're wrong -- after all, they aren't actually thinking logically, god just covered their eyes and ears to THE TRUTH™.

No single step in the search for enlightenment should ever be considered sacred; only the search should.
-Ann Druyan
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08-01-2011, 07:31 PM
Post: #3
RE: Denying Belief
No free will?
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08-01-2011, 09:53 PM
Post: #4
RE: Denying Belief
Yeah, I always thought that was cute. A book that makes a whole bunch of outrageous claims and then states that some people may not believe it. I think it's funny when people use this as proof that these holy books know what they are talking about.

Join Atheism Today! Be sure to ask about our sexy parties. Big Grin
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08-02-2011, 01:24 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2011 01:29 AM by Yefet.)
Post: #5
RE: Denying Belief
For months now I have seen the good and the bad on here, Open and closed minded thinkers and have enjoyed just about (with the exception of one) all of them
But I have to say I do find it offensive when someone says that they know what it is I feel
I truly believe without a doubt that there is a force that created the way we operate as humans. We all have this thing called a life force or the essence that makes us think and act a certain way, A set of laws for a lack of a better word But just as I cannot tell what you feel, you cannot see my life through your eyes.
It is beyond our comprehension to understand the qualities of total altruism and love. Because without personal gain, profit and reward we would not lift a single finger.
Belief is a quality that can only be imparted to us from what we refer to as Above, and only those who have experienced it will ever begin to understand it and it is different to each person But if you are asking if this quality of belief is given to us from God, why then, should we try so hard to attain it?
A great man explained this very subject to me many years ago ,
take it for what it is worth .It can be compared to working for someone we feel great deal of respect for, everything we do for someone so worthy of our esteem will be done with joy and gratitude
You look forward to each day hoping to do something for that person simply to have the opportunity to serve such a person. All the work and toil in the world seems like a pleasure.
But then you discover that you got nothing out of it, but you continue to make the effort and toil.
We go to church and read scripture and say a few prayers only because of the promise of the resulting pleasure, then it hits you “forget this crap man ,its all man made bull” but this should tell you that this force or what some call god is not yet great enough in your eyes or your perception, and that your attention is being drawn to other goals, anything other than attaining the spiritual or whatever you want to call it, and that’s ok, The ego is growing and learning It is a protection devise Otherwise the ego would assume it is what caused this pleasure in the first place. That is mans basic nature.
I happen to love the feeling I get from working for some thing worthy of my esteem, the work and toil seems like a pleasure, My believe is my work
Maybe someday, God forbid, my ego will convince me that it caused all this pleasure ,I don’t know, but until it does someone else does not have the right to tell me that, until they can tell me what it is I feel
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08-02-2011, 01:37 AM
Post: #6
RE: Denying Belief
I am not telling you how to feel or what to think Yefi, I am making comment on the passages in the books mentioned and perhaps yours as well, that says god will close some peoples hearts, eyes, ears to his message so that they will not be saved. These passages seem to me to be saying that god chooses who will believe and who won't. That according to these passages we have no control over it. Rather than if you search you will find. It should read, if you search you will find if god hasn't decided already that you won't.

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08-02-2011, 06:06 AM
Post: #7
RE: Denying Belief
(08-02-2011 01:37 AM)kevlar Wrote:  These passages seem to me to be saying that god chooses who will believe and who won't. That according to these passages we have no control over it. Rather than if you search you will find. It should read, if you search you will find if god hasn't decided already that you won't.

We most certainly DO have control over it..
No! It's not a contradiction .. it's all about our intention .. the state of our "hearts" ..

Almighty God wrongs nobody, but we often wrong ourselves. The nature of this world is that we will often live our lives in a certain way, according to our upbringing/tribe/nation .. wealth is a test, and can often make us 'hard-hearted'.

Some people get closer to God when some (personal) calamity befalls them .. this is our nature .. and those that move towards God and don't stray away from Him when their difficulty eases, are very fortunate indeed .. a life changing experience!
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08-02-2011, 09:28 AM
Post: #8
RE: Denying Belief
(08-02-2011 06:06 AM)isa_muhammad Wrote:  
(08-02-2011 01:37 AM)kevlar Wrote:  These passages seem to me to be saying that god chooses who will believe and who won't. That according to these passages we have no control over it. Rather than if you search you will find. It should read, if you search you will find if god hasn't decided already that you won't.

We most certainly DO have control over it..
No! It's not a contradiction .. it's all about our intention .. the state of our "hearts" ..

Almighty God wrongs nobody, but we often wrong ourselves. The nature of this world is that we will often live our lives in a certain way, according to our upbringing/tribe/nation .. wealth is a test, and can often make us 'hard-hearted'.

Some people get closer to God when some (personal) calamity befalls them .. this is our nature .. and those that move towards God and don't stray away from Him when their difficulty eases, are very fortunate indeed .. a life changing experience!

Does your book say that your god will harden the hearts of some that they will not believe in your god? Maybe not in so many words, but that is the message isn't it. Maybe you can quote the surah for me?

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08-02-2011, 09:50 AM
Post: #9
RE: Denying Belief
Kevlar Wrote:Apparently both the bible and quran claim that god will prevent some people from believing in him, close their ears and eyes to him, only allow those he wishes to believe in him actually believe. So it's really up to god whether we believe or not, we in fact have no say. Thank God.

Paul only says Israel is blinded.
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08-02-2011, 10:11 AM
Post: #10
RE: Denying Belief
(08-02-2011 09:50 AM)Edward Wrote:  
Kevlar Wrote:Apparently both the bible and quran claim that god will prevent some people from believing in him, close their ears and eyes to him, only allow those he wishes to believe in him actually believe. So it's really up to god whether we believe or not, we in fact have no say. Thank God.

Paul only says Israel is blinded.

So are you saying that now the bible is only Paul's writings?

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