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Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
09-29-2009, 11:10 AM
Post: #1
Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?

Romans 9

10And not only so, but(S) also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of(T) him who calls— 12she was told,(U) "[b]The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written,(V) "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14What shall we say then?(W) Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses,(X) "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,(Y) "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The above indicates that we have no free choice in how we behave. Pharaoh’s free will was manipulated by God. His free choice was taken from him.

If the wills of those who sin are hardened by God, does this mean that God is doing the work of Satan or is God just creating more evil as required? Forcing people to do evil. Does He force some to take the evil path? If so, how can we condemn the sinners who have been made to sin by God? Was pharaoh innocent yet punished by God?

Regards
DL
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09-29-2009, 08:57 PM
Post: #2
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
According to the bible god is (say it with me, folks,) all-powerful, all-knowing, and our creator. Logically, therefore, all of us are innocent when we are punished. However the bible also makes it clear that we are punished justly for our sins.

It's a contradiction. The bible's full of them. Do a google search and check them out. Some can be easily explained (I've done it,) but some can't be.

Here's the question: is it possible to defy god, and do something that surprises god? If not, then there is no free will.

I've been saying this a lot lately. Honestly, I think I've been saying it too much. I'm a bit overexposed here. But I'm going to keep saying it until someone can give me a decent argument as to why my logic is wrong. No one has been able to. The closest anyone has come is, "But it's obvious that we have free will!" Yes. It is obvious. That has nothing to do with the fact that the hypothetical Abrahamic god is an inherent contradiction. The fact that we obviously have free will is only evidence for the lack of such a god.

The other argument has been, "But WE don't know that we don't have free will, so it's like we have free will!" Until I was 19 I did not know of the existence of fried cheesecake. This was NOT THE SAME THING AS HAVING DELICIOUS FRIED CHEESECAKE. Ignorance of your poverty (according to an objective standard) does not make you rich (according to that same standard), no matter what Hollywood wants you to believe. Having never heard of Linda Eder is not the same thing as having your heart melted by the greatest female vocalist of the 90s.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

See, the thing is this seems very intuitive to me. Although I am certain I am not the first atheist to bring this up, I honestly did work it out pretty much on my own. It was a real "hang on a second . . ." moment. Because I'm certain I'm not the smartest person in the world, I'm sure that some Christian somewhere must have come up with some argument against this. But it's becoming very clear that no one on this forum knows what that argument is, and until I hear it my objection to the very existence of an Abrahamic god still stands.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
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09-29-2009, 11:38 PM
Post: #3
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
one must know who G%D truly is and the answers will rush in.
It will be revealed in near future.
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09-29-2009, 11:40 PM
Post: #4
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
Please. Christians have been saying that one since before they were Christians.

Besides, this isn't a question of scientific knowledge. It's a question of logic, which is as close to the only pure science (i.e., mathematics) that you can get with practical application. Learning more about the world won't make this question any clearer. God, as outline in the bible, cannot give us free will.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
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09-29-2009, 11:47 PM
Post: #5
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
are you spiritual?
I know what christians been yearning to know, my liberation isnt from Mankind but from higher power. G%D, the world knows of isn't what the world thinks. I can only say this for now.
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09-29-2009, 11:54 PM
Post: #6
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
If "you can only say this for now," then your god, like the christian god, revels in hiding himself. Such a god has no right to complain if we thus believe he does not exist.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
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09-30-2009, 12:01 AM
Post: #7
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
my mission isn't to argue since I know spiritually. I will say this GT and all readers around the world. from every non-believer to the most faithful practitioner, truth will be known in near future. then i may rest my lids.
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09-30-2009, 12:06 AM
Post: #8
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
If your mission isn't to argue, or at least to persuade, then why do you even bother hanging around on this forum? You claim you know, so clearly it's not to learn. And your mission isn't to persuade, so it's clearly not to teach. So what purpose do you have, exactly, rather than spouting vague enigmas to make yourself feel superior?

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
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09-30-2009, 12:14 AM
Post: #9
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
I'm introducing the path to the meaning of the teaching. I don't think I'm superior to anyone nor the mentality to brag. Trust me, I'm very eager to reveal it but "I will NOT jeopardize their plans", so meantime its about paitents for me.
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09-30-2009, 12:17 AM
Post: #10
RE: Does God do Satan’s work in removing our free choice?
You're introducing nothing. You refuse to explain or give any sort of decent argument. You simply insist upon things that you only believe are true because you believe you are called by god, for which there is no external evidence for the rest of us to see.

So if you are introducing a path, you're really not doing very well.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
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