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Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
02-15-2010, 06:59 AM (This post was last modified: 02-15-2010 06:59 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #1
Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
Every thing that I want to preach has been covered by a 4 hour documentay by PBS: From Jesus to Christ: The First Christians.

A PBS documentary

Written and Produced by Marilyn Mellowes
William Cran, Senior Producer and Director


Air date: April 6, 1998. To watch part I go to:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1365214164/

Here is a part of the transcript:

READER: [Matthew 5:2,17] "Then he began to speak and taught them saying, ´Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.'"

Prof. PAULA FREDRIKSEN, Boston University: What we learned from the Gospel stories is not that Jesus was not Jewish. Quite the opposite. He's completely embedded in the Judaism of his time.

Prof. SHAYE J.D. COHEN, Brown University: Was Jesus a Jew? Of course Jesus was a Jew. He was born of a Jewish mother in Galilee, a Jewish part of the world. All of his friends, associates, colleagues, disciples-- all of them were Jews. He regularly worshipped in Jewish communal worship, what we call synagogue. He preached from Jewish texts from the Bible. He celebrated the Jewish festivals. He was born, lived, died, taught as a Jew.

Nowadays, there are temples and synagogues everywhere you go. There is not a Jewish community in the world that doesn't have a synagogue, and many of them are called temples. In this period, however, we should always remember that there is only one temple and that's the one temple in Jerusalem.

NARRATOR: For Jews living in the time of Jesus, the temple in Jerusalem was center of their religious life.

Prof. SHAYE J.D. COHEN: The Jewish historian, Josephus, has a very memorable line. He says, "One temple for the one God." The Jews saw themselves as a unique people, with the one God, the one God alone, and this one God of this one special people had one temple. And that's a very powerful idea, reflecting accurately, I think, the historical truth that the temple was a very powerful unifying source within the Jewish community.

This was the one most sacred place on Earth, the one place on Earth where the earth rises up and the heavens somehow descend just enough that they just touch. This was the only one place on the entire Earth where this was so.

Prof. PAULA FREDRIKSEN: The temple in Jerusalem was the symbolic heart of the country. Jews everywhere, if they chose to, if they were pious, would put aside part of their income. It's sort of like the way Christmas Clubs operate now. You'd put aside money explicitly to be spent having a party in Jerusalem.
...
Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: The movement that originated around Jesus must have suffered a traumatic setback with his death-- not so much that a Messiah couldn't die, but that nothing happened. The Kingdom didn't arrive immediately, as they might have expected.

Assoc. Prof. ALLEN CALLAHAN, Harvard Divinity School: The effect that the crucifixion had on Jesus' followers was the desired effect, from the Roman perspective-- that is, that people who were associated with Jesus were terrified. I mean, before the Easter proclamation, there must have been some sort of Easter panic, you see, that folks were hiding out, as they should have, because now they were accomplices of an executed criminal.

Prof. WAYNE MEEKS: The followers of Jesus, who don't go away as they're supposed to when Pilate caused this, have to deal with that fundamental question: "What does this mean that the one that we had all of these expectations about has been crucified? How do we deal with this, not merely the end of this life, but the shameful end of this life?"

Prof. JOHN DOMINIC CROSSAN, DePaul University: The only place they can go, eventually, is into the Hebrew Scriptures, into their tradition, and find out, "Is it possible that the elect one, the Messiah, the righteous one, the Holy One," any title they use of Jesus "is it possible that such a one could be oppressed, persecuted and executed?" They go into the Hebrew Scriptures, and of course, what they find is that it's almost like a job description of being God's righteous one, to be persecuted and even executed.

...
READER: [Josephus, The War of the Jews] "The Romans set the temple on fire. All that was left was the platform wall that once supported the symbol of the center of the nation of Israel."

NARRATOR: Roman troops sacked the temple and carried off the sacred symbols of Judaism.

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: Jerusalem, the sacred city, the temple, the center of piety and identity, is gone.

It's very important that we remember that up to and through the First Revolt, Christians are still part of Judaism, and the revolt and its aftermath is just the beginning of a split, as each group tries to rethink its earlier traditions in the light of the failure of the First Revolt.

We have to imagine the refugees fleeing from the burning ruins of Jerusalem. And as they look back at the smoke rising against the horizon, they might have remembered the words of the Psalm from the first destruction back in the time of the Babylonian exile: "By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion."

For transcript of Part I go to:

K:\Materials for my writing\FRONTLINE from jesus to christ - the first christians tapes, transcripts & events PBS.mht

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-15-2010, 07:30 AM
Post: #2
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
Yet another proof that Islam is obsessed with the elimination of all other religions and lifestyles.

Anyone who thinks that early Christianity was strictly Jewish is ignoring the earliest Christian writings, those of Paul. What was to become orthodox Christianity stemmed mainly from Paul, not from the Jerusalem church. And Paul's theology was very, very different from Judaism. The message in the Gospel of Mark, on which Matthew and Luke are based, is about the irrelevancy of the destruction of the Temple to the followers of Jesus. The Gospel of John shows just how distinct Christianity was from Judaism. Matthew's comments about the Law were to show his Jewish converts that the new rabbinic Judaism that was attempting to suppress all other religious beliefs was not the only heir to the heritage of morality. Matthew also includes decidedly non-Jewish elements in his story, there for the benefit of his gentile converts. And all four Gospels are strongly and explicitly Pauline in their theology.

Jewish life was indeed centered around the Temple. But I seem to recall Jesus having something to say about that. Mark is the first to tell us that his threat to this archaic central control of Judaism was the reason they decided to have him killed.

And far from Christians hiding in fear after crucifixion, we can see from the writings of Paul and of Luke in Acts that Christianity had already spread far and wide independently of Paul. And the Nag Hammadi library shows just how much the idea of the crucifixion as a supernatural event had grabbed the popular imagination.

One might as well claim that Islam has pagan roots, as some here have, and should be in the Polytheism section.
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02-15-2010, 08:44 AM (This post was last modified: 02-15-2010 11:26 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #3
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
(02-15-2010 07:30 AM)Parousia Wrote:  Yet another proof that Islam is obsessed with the elimination of all other religions and lifestyles. ...

Dear all, please take my posts as merely a search for the Truth. I believe in absolute religious freedom for all. I am not against other religions. If it was upto me, I would rather have people as Unitarian Christians than Jews, Sikhs, Trinitarians, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics and atheists in that order. I am here to forge out some common understanding and 'Universal Brotherhood,' but in doing that free dialogue has to continue, there cannot be any artificial limits or boundaries and creation of taboos.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your RIGHT to say it." This I will do not only because it is the noble thing to do but also because Islam and the Quran say so.

Obviously, Parousia offers powerful arguments counter to the PBS documentary. It is a well done 4 hour documentary, I will urge every one to stop every thing that he or she is doing and watch the documentary to make up his or her own independent mind!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-15-2010, 09:08 AM
Post: #4
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
(02-15-2010 08:44 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  
(02-15-2010 07:30 AM)Parousia Wrote:  Yet another proof that Islam is obsessed with the elimination of all other religions and lifestyles. ...

Dear all, please take my posts as merely a search for the Truth. I believe in absolute religious freedom for all. I am not against other religions. If it was upto me, I would rather have people as Unitarian Christians than Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Trinitarians, agnostics and atheists in that order. I am here to forge out some common understanding and 'Universal Brotherhood,' but in doing that free dialogue has to continue, there cannot be any artificial limits or boundaries and creation of taboos.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your RIGHT to say it." This I will do not only because it is the noble thing to do but also because Islam and the Quran say so.

Ahmadi, how can you tell this lie over and over again? You are a Muslim and your Quran forbids you as a Muslim from believing in "absolute religious freedom for all." There's no religious freedom for non-Abrahamic religions in Muslim dominated countries. They are to be destroyed by Quranic instructions.

Obviously, Parousia offers powerful arguments counter to the PBS documentary. It is a well done 4 hour documentary, I will urge every one to stop every thing that he or she is doing and watch the documentary to make up his or her own independent mind!

A Muslim with an "independent mind", that's an oxymoronic statement for Muslims commanded to submit to one man's ideas of God and social rules. Parousia offers expert testimony because, unlike you, he knows his Christian religious roots whereas you Muslims know only the criticisms of Christianity taught by your idol instead of actually learning about Christian doctrines from Christians themselves. It's not only disrespectful and offensive to Christians to have Muslims trying to tell them about Christian doctrine, it is a mark of narcissism and blindness in the doctrines of one's own religion. The only valid criticism any religionist can give of another religion's doctrines is showing how those doctrines are being used in harmful ways by believers.
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02-15-2010, 09:30 AM (This post was last modified: 02-15-2010 11:26 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #5
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
Muslims ruled over India for 1000 years and it came out a Hindu majority country. The rumors of Islam's intolerance are grossly exaggerated!


(02-15-2010 07:30 AM)Parousia Wrote:  Anyone who thinks that early Christianity was strictly Jewish is ignoring the earliest Christian writings, those of Paul. What was to become orthodox Christianity stemmed mainly from Paul, not from the Jerusalem church. And Paul's theology was very, very different ...

That is exactly my point. It is Paul against the rest of humanity, against all the early Christians, the apostles of Jesus Christ, all the Jewish teachings, all that Islam stands for and even other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. Time to ignore one person and let reason and rationality prevail. Please see for yourself what the early Christians and Jews of Jesus' time believed in and stood for. Time to watch the 4 hour documentary:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1365214164/

The link for the transcript above was wrong. The correct link is:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...ript1.html


It is time to be Unitarian Christians if you are not ready for Islam. President Thomas Jefferson wanted and hoped that all Americans will be Unitarian fairly soon. I am his ambassador on that mission!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-15-2010, 12:36 PM
Post: #6
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
(02-15-2010 09:30 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  
(02-15-2010 07:30 AM)Parousia Wrote:  Anyone who thinks that early Christianity was strictly Jewish is ignoring the earliest Christian writings, those of Paul. What was to become orthodox Christianity stemmed mainly from Paul, not from the Jerusalem church. And Paul's theology was very, very different ...

That is exactly my point. It is Paul against the rest of humanity, against all the early Christians, the apostles of Jesus Christ, all the Jewish teachings, all that Islam stands for and even other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. Time to ignore one person and let reason and rationality prevail. Please see for yourself what the early Christians and Jews of Jesus' time believed in and stood for. Time to watch the 4 hour documentary:

Utter nonsense. Paul represented the majority of early Christians. Of the four Gospel writers, only Matthew was Jewish and he hedged his bets all over the place. Just read his Nativity story. Claiming that it is Paul against the world is simply ludicrous.

I have the documentary on DVD. It is filled with gross errors. The major mistake from which all others stem is trying to understand Jesus by quote mining from the Gospels. First of all they are written 40 to 80 years after the fact and are addressed to particular audiences, primarily non-Jewish ones. Second, for every quote taken out of context ostensibly demonstrating some particular fact, I could come up with two that 'demonstrate' the opposite. It is necessary to read in context not only of the surrounding material but of the time, place, circumstances and intended audience.

It is popular these days for anyone who has been taught the scriptures in a conservative environment to suddenly ‘discover’ that the story they were told is not the real deal. Very, very few of them have done any real research into the origins of the scriptures. They pick and chose which parts they want to believe and which they do not want to believe based on current ‘pop’ fads.

If one wants to understand what Jesus really said, one ought to investigate those significant traces of an apparent earlier document (Q), which paints a rather different picture than the commonly held one. This Jesus was by no means a mainstream Jew. He perceived the presence of God in the natural world and preached finding the kingdom of God in the here and now by believing in it and living it. This was radically opposed to both the ‘official’ temple oriented religion dominated by the Sadducees and the growing revolutionary messianic movements. His leanings were primarily to the oral tradition of the Pharisees but he was critical of the then present literal rule orientation of Shammai, who reshaped Pharisaic teaching in his own ‘my way or the highway’ form. The criticisms leveled by these supposed experts do not take that into account at all.


(02-15-2010 09:30 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  It is time to be Unitarian Christians if you are not ready for Islam. President Thomas Jefferson wanted and hoped that all Americans will be Unitarian fairly soon. I am his ambassador on that mission!

What you really mean is to abandon the basic tenets of Christianity, right? And the last thing Jefferson would ever do is to try to push his own views on anyone, so don’t pretend to be his ambassador.
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02-15-2010, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 02-15-2010 02:22 PM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #7
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
(02-15-2010 12:36 PM)Parousia Wrote:  
(02-15-2010 09:30 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  It is time to be Unitarian Christians if you are not ready for Islam. President Thomas Jefferson wanted and hoped that all Americans will be Unitarian fairly soon. I am his ambassador on that mission!

What you really mean is to abandon the basic tenets of Christianity, right? And the last thing Jefferson would ever do is to try to push his own views on anyone, so don’t pretend to be his ambassador.

I do genuinely want people to be Unitarian Christians, to follow in the footsteps of Joseph Priestly and President Thomas Jefferson. I genuinely believe in what I am suggesting and I also have my license from the Holy Quran:

"Say, ‘O People of the Book! come to a word equal between us and you — that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partner with Him, and that some of us take not others for Lords besides Allah.’ But if they turn away, then say, ‘Bear witness that we have submitted to God.’" (Al Quran 3:65)

I take Unitarian Christianity as much closer to Islam compared to Trinitarian beliefs, but it is still Christianity, devoid of any belief in the prophethood of Muhammad, may peace be upon him.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-15-2010, 02:22 PM
Post: #8
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
According to the script of this documentary:

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: Among the Dead Sea Scrolls, we hear not of just one Messiah, but at least two Messiahs. Some of their writings talk about a Messiah of Aaron, a priestly figure, who will come to restore the temple at Jerusalem to its proper purity and worship of God. But there's also a Messiah of David that is a kind of kingly figure who will come to lead the war.

There is no mention of a third kind of Messiah who will die for our sins!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Post: #9
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
(02-15-2010 02:22 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  According to the script of this documentary:

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: Among the Dead Sea Scrolls, we hear not of just one Messiah, but at least two Messiahs. Some of their writings talk about a Messiah of Aaron, a priestly figure, who will come to restore the temple at Jerusalem to its proper purity and worship of God. But there's also a Messiah of David that is a kind of kingly figure who will come to lead the war.

There is no mention of a third kind of Messiah who will die for our sins!

Stick to your own inferior religion, Ahmadi. You just make a fool of yourself when you try to tell Christians how to be Christians.
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02-15-2010, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 02-15-2010 05:59 PM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #10
RE: Early Christians followed Judaism, let us merge the two forums
Readers, you would always find me debating issues, beliefs and doctrines, it is my opponents only, who make derisive comments without evidence, case in point, is the above comment.

Quoting from the transcript of the documentary:

Prof. PAULA FREDRIKSEN, Boston University: The stories about the resurrection in the Gospels make two very clear points: first of all, that Jesus really, really was dead, and secondly, that his disciples really and with absolute conviction saw him again afterwards. The Gospels are equally clear that it's not a ghost, I mean, even though the raised Jesus walks through a shut door in one of the Gospels, or suddenly materializes in the middle of a conference his disciples are having. He's at pains to assure them. "Touch me. Feel me. It's bones and flesh." In Luke he eats a piece of fish. Ghosts can't eat fish.

Unquote:
If the body was physical and not a ghost, as is suggested by the above quote and the fact that there were also scars of crucifixion, then it supports the case in my other threads, where I have mentioned that it was a case of resuscitation and not resurrection.
There is also mention in the documentary of how people died on the cross, and how it was a long prolonged process:

Prof. ERIC M. MEYERS: Death by crucifixion was certainly an awful, awful experience for the persecuted individual. It was slow, it was painful and it was public terror.

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: It's not from bleeding. It's not from the wounds themselves that the death occurs. It's rather a suffocation because one can't hold oneself up enough to breath properly. And so over time, really, it's really the exposure to the elements and the gradual loss of breath that produces death.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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