Poll: Do you feel the Israelites are obeying the fifth (5) commandment
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First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
06-07-2017, 06:36 PM
Post: #21
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
I've read his accounts, yes, and view them to be heavily biased and not the most reliable. For example, he describes them as filthy, yet every other culture describes them as excessively hygienic.

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06-07-2017, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2017 07:22 PM by Avun Jahei.)
Post: #22
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
(06-07-2017 06:36 PM)Satyros Wrote:  I've read his accounts, yes, and view them to be heavily biased and not the most reliable. For example, he describes them as filthy, yet every other culture describes them as excessively hygienic.

Which other cultures?


After a quick search i found the following:

http://www.danishnet.com/vikings/cleanli...ake-baths/

al-Fadlan did not like viking type hygiene (an Arab would not blow his nose when others are around or share a washing bowl) but he confirmed
that they washed themselves - contrary to the Christians who thought that bathing is sinful. No wonder that the Christian monks describes the vikings as clean, even when they bathed only once a week - Arabs had somewhat higher standards. But I did not read al-Fadlan's account, I only know what he wrote from a series of lectures from an archaeologist. I do not know if he really said that they were filthy.

But the thread is actually about murderous Jews, I have derailed it quite a bit.
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06-07-2017, 08:41 PM
Post: #23
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
John of Wallingford, for one, complained that the Danish Vikings were "too clean", noting that they combed their hair out every day, washed every week (a high rate, compared to most of the rest of the Medieval world,) and changed their clothing regularly. Persian merchants also picked up on the Norse's habits and fashion, deriving baggy, loose pants from them. Viking gravesites have also uncovered "travel tools" that have beard combs, ear spoons (for wax) and picks, most likely for teeth cleaning.

But yes, this is a bit of a de-rail.

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06-19-2017, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 06-19-2017 01:12 PM by PeterSAK.)
Post: #24
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
(06-07-2017 12:39 PM)jamesduncan Wrote:  This topic is relevant to a religious forum because these acts were carried out for religious reasons

As a matter of fact, the mentioned groups were all secular and some of them expressively anti-religious.

In order to find religious Jewish terror, you need to begin with ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist terror in the 50s, and later religious-Zionist fundamentalist terror from the 80s and onward.


(06-07-2017 04:50 PM)Avun Jahei Wrote:  But in fact Jewish history was not that bad. They were a thriving community under the protection of Islam. Persecution of Jews was largely a Christian phenomenon.

Not quite correct. As Bernard Lewis has expressed it, the Jews in Muslim countries never lived as well as in the Christian world, when they lived the best there, and never as bad in the Muslim world, as in the Christian world when it was the worst.

There definitely were persecution of Jews in the Muslim world. One example is the Almohads in Morocco/al-Andalus in the 12th century. The persecution were never total, as in total extermination of Jews or in the whole of the Muslim world at the same time. Some places were worse than others, Yemen for example have never been particularly tolerant to the Jews there under Islamic rule. The Osmanic empire was generally more tolerant.
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06-19-2017, 02:19 PM
Post: #25
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
(06-07-2017 12:39 PM)jamesduncan Wrote:  I post this topic in a religious forum etc.

Assuming your facts are correct (and I have no immediate reason to think otherwise) we are left with evidence that some Jews did not follow the commandment, 'You shall not kill/murder'?

As such, the breaking of that commandment is between them and God- God takes care of those who transgress on his laws, not man. Man, on the other hand, has the delightful task of dealing with those who perpetrate those crimes in his midst.

Are these Jewish criminals any less so simply because they are/were Jewish? No, of course not.

Should we treat Jewish criminals any differently than we do other criminals? No, of course not.

~~~

In the end, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. They're criminals- no one is debating that- but to what end do you present these crimes committed by Jews?

When someone asks "What would Jesus do?" remind them that flipping tables and chasing people with a whip is entirely possible.
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06-20-2017, 07:33 AM
Post: #26
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
(06-19-2017 01:06 PM)PeterSAK Wrote:  
(06-07-2017 04:50 PM)Avun Jahei Wrote:  But in fact Jewish history was not that bad. They were a thriving community under the protection of Islam. Persecution of Jews was largely a Christian phenomenon.

Not quite correct. As Bernard Lewis has expressed it, the Jews in Muslim countries never lived as well as in the Christian world, when they lived the best there, and never as bad in the Muslim world, as in the Christian world when it was the worst.

There definitely were persecution of Jews in the Muslim world. One example is the Almohads in Morocco/al-Andalus in the 12th century. The persecution were never total, as in total extermination of Jews or in the whole of the Muslim world at the same time. Some places were worse than others, Yemen for example have never been particularly tolerant to the Jews there under Islamic rule. The Osmanic empire was generally more tolerant.

As dhimmi the jews were second class citizens, but this rule was not always enforced, especially not in the "Golden Age" of Islamic culture.

The Almohads were extremists, I am not surprised that they persecuted Jews. The same can be said about 17th century Safavids in Iran. In case of the Zaidites in Yemen I am not sure. But I guess generally persecution or harsh treatment of the Jews was connected with extremist forms of Islam.
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06-21-2017, 01:24 PM
Post: #27
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
(06-20-2017 07:33 AM)Avun Jahei Wrote:  The Almohads were extremists, I am not surprised that they persecuted Jews. The same can be said about 17th century Safavids in Iran. In case of the Zaidites in Yemen I am not sure. But I guess generally persecution or harsh treatment of the Jews was connected with extremist forms of Islam.

Even the Almohads had a limit. As is witnessed by the writings of Maimonides, most Jews were allowed to live their lives as Jews in private, as long as they outwardly pretended to be Muslims.

Everything depends on time and place. The narrative about the Golden Age is being contested by some historians. I haven't read up on the newer discussions on this particular subject, so I'm not sure what to think. When it comes to Yemen, then it's pretty settled that it never was a place that treated its Jews particular well. Some times worse than others, but at most - and in rarer cases - as second class people.

My greatest problem, when it comes to discussions about Jews living in Muslim lands, is that people often choose to focus on things that support their narrative. Either it was almost better than the conditions Jews experience in the West today, or it was worse than anyone could imagine. The Almohads are being used as an example for the Jewish experience at that time, but those focusing on the Almohads forget that a Jew could travel from Morocco to Egypt, and become a physician for Salah al-Din, no small feat for a Jew in those days. And even more that a qadi in Egypt refused to punish the same Jew for apostasy, when accused for this by a Muslim from Morocco, since forcing people to convert is against Islam.
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07-18-2017, 09:16 PM
Post: #28
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
(06-07-2017 04:20 PM)Avun Jahei Wrote:  What's his intent in making a list of Jews killing people? I could make a list of Bulgarians or Evangelicals having killed people.

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07-20-2017, 10:56 AM
Post: #29
RE: First religious acts of terrorism, coining the phrase
(07-18-2017 09:16 PM)jamesduncan Wrote:  
(06-07-2017 04:20 PM)Avun Jahei Wrote:  What's his intent in making a list of Jews killing people? I could make a list of Bulgarians or Evangelicals having killed people.

There is an old saying; two wrongs do not make a right
Waving Goodbye

True, but it does illustrate that Jews are people like everyone else- no more, no less- and have all the same virtues and faults as everyone else.

When someone asks "What would Jesus do?" remind them that flipping tables and chasing people with a whip is entirely possible.
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