Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
11-30-2017, 07:52 AM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 07:57 AM by %mindless_detector%.)
Post: #1
Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
Christian friend got upset over the following:

1. The job of machine learning researchers is to make smart software that do things that humans are effortlessly good at, like recognizing images.

2. These smart software are loosely inspired by the human brain, so they can learn somewhat like humans do.

3. These researchers, because they are non omniscient, they don't know how to make the very smart software from scratch. As a result, the smart software that they build have to learn by trial and error/make mistakes in order to get better at doing tasks.

4. In a similar way, if Gods really gave humans free will, humans are using this free will to learn from past mistakes, where humans have actually gotten smarter and smarter as we developed science and technology.

5. This then has a surprising consequence; why would God need to give humans the chance to learn by free will, if God was smart enough to make modern intelligent humans without the need to learn by trial and error? 

It implies that if free will is God given, God is non omniscient/non omnipotent in a similar way to how machine learning researchers are non omniscient, and therefore make smart software that need to learn by trial/error to get better at tasks!!!

Signature: I am interested in completing a novel learning model I call the "Supersymmetric Artificial Neural Network". (See this easy overview)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 10:10 AM
Post: #2
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 07:52 AM)%mindless_detector% Wrote:  ...why would God need to give humans the chance to learn by free will, if God was smart enough to make modern intelligent humans without the need to learn by trial and error? It implies that if free will is God-given, [then] God is non-omniscient.

As omniscience entails several logical difficulties (see Newcomb’s paradox), I doubt the Abrahamic God is truly omniscient, assuming there is a god, of course. I prefer the term “polyscient,” knowing all that can be known, yet with unknowables always lurking in the background.

Furthermore, following Gilbert Bilezikian’s Christianity 101, I imagine God as sovereign over his own mind, able to choose not to know something, as in the Garden of Eden when he calls out to Adam, “Where are you?” If he’d known where Adam was hiding, this would become a baiting question, one just meant to taunt Adam, a thing I don’t believe God does to people. So, God, at that moment, did not know where Adam was.

Learning from experience, often in the bitter school of hard knocks, is a key element in what it means to be a human. Sure, a polypotent deity (for omnipotence also brings contradictions) could make humans not needing to learn by trial and error, but then they wouldn’t be human.

Of course, you’re correct regarding the tremendous advances written language arts, reasoning, science, and mathematics have made over time. Ancient peoples were simply dumb about certain things, missing logical connections we make with ease today—as in the audience’s incomprehension at so many of Jesus’s parables. Absent science, they could be bamboozled by fantastic creation and flood tales a modern high schooler could shoot as full of holes as a Nevada highway sign in five minutes.

Yet we’ve got usernames here who can’t accept that the Noah’s Ark threads have concluded no global flood is possible due to the question of where the water would come from, and that a boat like the Ark would sink, lacking the structural strength needed to withstand the pounding delivered by high seas waves.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 12:26 PM by muhammad_isa.)
Post: #3
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 10:10 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  
(11-30-2017 07:52 AM)%mindless_detector% Wrote:  ...why would God need to give humans the chance to learn by free will, if God was smart enough to make modern intelligent humans without the need to learn by trial and error? It implies that if free will is God-given, [then] God is non-omniscient.

As omniscience entails several logical difficulties (see Newcomb’s paradox), I doubt the Abrahamic God is truly omniscient
I disagree. You can't have it both ways. Either He is independent of time & space .. or not.
What 'logical difficulties' do you refer to?

(11-30-2017 10:10 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  ...
Learning from experience, often in the bitter school of hard knocks, is a key element in what it means to be a human.
Exactly .. it's by design. There is something to be gained by having "free-will". Clearly, there is a downside., yet we have been warned.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 01:11 PM by %mindless_detector%.)
Post: #4
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 10:10 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  Exactly .. it's by design. There is something to be gained by having "free-will". Clearly, there is a downside., yet we have been warned.

Goes to show you, theistic God didn't have enough knowledge or power to make modern humans from the get go.

Since free will is a tool to enable learning, it is an indicator of the creator's weakness or lack of power.

Signature: I am interested in completing a novel learning model I call the "Supersymmetric Artificial Neural Network". (See this easy overview)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 02:41 PM by muhammad_isa.)
Post: #5
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 01:09 PM)%mindless_detector% Wrote:  
(11-30-2017 10:10 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  Exactly .. it's by design. There is something to be gained by having "free-will". Clearly, there is a downside., yet we have been warned.

Goes to show you, theistic God didn't have enough knowledge or power to make modern humans from the get go.

Since free will is a tool to enable learning, it is an indicator of the creator's weakness or lack of power.

You quoted the wrong person .. that was me.
What you have written makes little sense to me. "creator's weakness" .. rather it is humans that are weak.
You envisage a human being that has no free-will? Like an angel? All theoretical tosh Smile

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 03:06 PM
Post: #6
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 02:40 PM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  You quoted the wrong person .. that was me.
What you have written makes little sense to me. "creator's weakness" .. rather it is humans that are weak.
You envisage a human being that has no free-will? Like an angel? All theoretical tosh Smile

I didn't say that.

God could have created humans equipped with current knowledge level aka modern humans from the get go.

I said nothing about angels right there.

I didn't say modern humans were angels.

So God didn't have sufficient power to create modern humans, and so god gave humans free will to be able to learn and make choices to get to our current level of knowledge.

God wasn't knowledgeable enough to do better.

Signature: I am interested in completing a novel learning model I call the "Supersymmetric Artificial Neural Network". (See this easy overview)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 03:59 PM by Amememhab.)
Post: #7
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 12:25 PM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  I disagree. You can't have it both ways. Either He is independent of time & space .. or not.

Independence from space and time does not imply omniscience, however. “Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omnibenevolent” is a phrase in theodicy we can trace back to Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century, as parts of his arguments for the existence of God.

It hinges on whether there are unknowables in the cosmos. Even if God created the universe so as to have such unknowables, still even he won’t be able to know them. Yet this isn’t too serious a limitation on his powers, for Satan and humankind don’t know answers to those unanswerable questions, either.

These allow for an element of chance and adventure in the universe. I believe God took some risks in his project of creation. Thanks for pointing out Mindless Detector’s misquote, however.
~ Smile

(11-30-2017 01:09 PM)%mindless_detector% Wrote:  Goes to show you...God didn't have enough knowledge or power to make modern humans from the get go...free will is...an indicator of the creator's weakness or lack of power.

Really? Who says he couldn’t have created us with all the knowledge and reasoning skill that can be stuffed into a human brain? But then we’d be smarmy “know-it-alls,” with nothing to learn from life. And if nothing to learn from life, then why have a life in the first place? What a stultifying prospect! I can’t imagine God wanted us in permanent boredom. We were meant to grow, to live.

Although I believe there are things God cannot know and things God cannot do, neither can any other agent in the universe know or do these things. So, it is not a weakness, a deficiency in his powers; it’s merely a boundary God cannot, or has chosen not to allow himself, to cross. For if all were doable, it would already have been done, leaving us and him with nothing further to do. God didn’t want completion from the beginning; he wanted a dynamic cosmos, filled with love and life.


(11-30-2017 02:54 PM)ForTaxCutsAndJobsAct Wrote:  Please express your support for the Tax Cuts and Jobs Acts to your congressional representatives.

Here to push the GOP agenda, Donald Trumpkin? “Reverse thrust, Mr. Sulu!” barks Captain Kirk on Star Trek as the klaxon on the bridge of the Enterprise blares. “Take us out of that Spammo cloud!” Please, no. Pick another forum for politicking; this one’s for discussing religion and religious issues.
~ Sad
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 04:14 PM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 04:26 PM by muhammad_isa.)
Post: #8
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 03:06 PM)%mindless_detector% Wrote:  I didn't say that.

God could have created humans equipped with current knowledge level aka modern humans from the get go.
Really .. I suppose you are God's son, so you would know Wink

(11-30-2017 03:09 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  ..
These allow for an element of chance and adventure in the universe. I believe God took some risks in his project of creation.
You make it sound like Almighty God "gambles" ..
No .. He knows precisely what He is doing .. furthermore He is perfect, Holy.
He is aware of every leaf that falls, in the past, in the present and in the future!
To God, the past and the future are much alike. Velocity has a sense of direction as does time. We say "time flows from the past to the present" .. this is our experience, our perception.

There will be much success among humans, although some will not be. He is Most Merciful and wants us to succeed and will always help the poor, oppressed.

..and you haven't pointed out these 'logical difficulties' ?
I agree that it's difficult to understand a "sense of time" that Almighty God inhabits ..
In the Qur'an, it states that "God is nearer than our jugular vein" .. I suppose you could say that He is part of us in some way..

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 07:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 07:43 PM by Amememhab.)
Post: #9
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
(11-30-2017 04:14 PM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  
(11-30-2017 03:09 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  These allow for an element of chance and adventure in the universe. I believe God took some risks in his project of creation.
You make it sound like Almighty God "gambles" ... No .. He knows precisely what He is doing ... furthermore He is perfect, Holy… ..and you haven't pointed out these 'logical difficulties.'

No, of course he doesn’t gamble, and I never said so. I said two things: He allows chance some latitude to operate in our universe, and, at some points, especially in connection with Lucifer’s concerted attack on heaven and Earth, has taken some calculated risks, such as the sending of his only begotten son, who would be tempted by the devil (Matthew 4:1) with no way to absolutely assure he might not fall, as Adam did.

For, if you’re going to predetermine everything that happens in a world you’re planning to create, then why create it in the first place? Nothing new will happen, nor will the people you breathe life into have any free will of their own—they’ll be robots, condemned to do whatever you predetermined they should do.

The bible does tell us that God predetermines some things. For instance, “...those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). However, nowhere in the bible do I see a statement to the effect that God totally excludes chance and circumstance from the cosmos. I do not know what the Quran says about this topic, which is among the most difficult of the theological problems Abrahamic scholars have analyzed. You might be able to enlighten me there, Isa.

Even if God knows the fall of every sparrow, does that mean he’s fixed that bird’s time in advance? Even if God knows the number of hairs on our heads, need he have chosen that number when he created the universe?

We’re agreed that God is holy. Furthermore, we’re agreed he’s perfect, in the sense that he neither commits nor countenances sin, being the most comprehensive intelligence which can exist in time or all eternity. In fact, I suspect his holiness is what motivated him to arrange for probabilistic laws to operate in our universe, within limits he described for them.

Isa, the cunning of Lucifer’s blitzkrieg took even God by surprise. Do you suppose Lucifer, who had been heaven’s third-most powerful angel, is a trivial character God can toy with before crushing him? No. God takes Satan quite seriously. And the plan to send the dragon, beast, and false prophet to their demises in the lake of fire is requiring a great deal of time and effort on God’s part.

For that matter, God isn’t fighting Satan alone, but with allies, the two-thirds of angels who remained loyal, and the humans who chose the paths of righteousness. We’re both on the side of good, Isa, and our God will win the war. Still, don’t expect an easy, quick war with no risks taken in the fog of battle. A wise general never underestimates the enemy.

As for the logical difficulties omniscience presents, I did point them out to you: Newcomb’s Paradox, for example. Research this term; it’s too long a story for me to repeat now, although I laid out its basics on another thread:

Faith is as a Mountain
http://www.religionforums.org/Thread-Fai...#pid299281
Oh, and I see username ForTaxCutsAndJobsAct, a.k.a. Mr. Trumpkin, has been cast into the lake of digital fire for spammers, courtesy the Moderator God.
~ Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
11-30-2017, 08:49 PM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017 08:51 PM by The_Squid.)
Post: #10
RE: Free Will is a sign of God's inescapable weakness
Quote:Really .. I suppose you are God's son, so you would know

What knowledge do you have access to that %mindless_detector% doesn’t have that would make what you think any more likely than what he thinks?

Are you God’s son? Is that how you know?

----------------------
Does anyone know where the love of God goes
when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)