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God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
07-24-2009, 01:35 PM
Post: #1
God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.

As a Gnostic Christian it is my duty to show how Christian scripture should be interpreted to show how God can be logically found and understood.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

New Jerusalem
9 The Lord is not being slow in carrying out his promises, as some people think he is; rather is he being patient with you, wanting nobody to be lost and everybody to be brought to repentance.

Follow the logic.

All that God creates is perfect.
God created evil. Sins are evil. Sins and evil are perfect as all of God’s works are.
All that is created was created by God and must be perfect.

It is God’s will that all repent. To repent, one must sin.

If God's will is not to be thwarted, all must and will sin.

If you believe scripture then why did God bring Satan/Talking snake to Eden and allow a supernatural being access to Eve. Not a fair confrontation at all. Right?

Further, if God creates all things then He creates our souls and natures. They are sinning natures.
If God did not want sin then all He would have to do is create us with non sinning natures.
Right?

He does not.

Why not?

Because He wants us to sin.
Sin’s value to God is to cause us to repent, so enjoy your sins and know that you will repent and be saved.

In this we have no free will. Hell is not an option since God’s will is that all be saved and His will cannot be thwarted.

Regards
DL
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07-24-2009, 05:26 PM
Post: #2
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
Hmmm. Sounds singularly inefficient to me. I mean, what's the point of defining something as evil, and then expecting us to do it? That's just silly. No, there's a flaw in that logic.

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07-26-2009, 10:12 AM
Post: #3
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
(07-24-2009 05:26 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Hmmm. Sounds singularly inefficient to me. I mean, what's the point of defining something as evil, and then expecting us to do it? That's just silly. No, there's a flaw in that logic.

You say that there is a flaw in my logic yet you do not show it.
Chastisement without correction is just cruelty and a lack of ideas.

Should evil not be confirmed to be evil.
How else do you justify laws?
Have you not heard the term, laws are made to be broken.

Regards
DL
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07-26-2009, 12:19 PM
Post: #4
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
I pointed out the flaw. If god wants us to do evil, then there are a few possibilities, all of them nonsensical.

1. He could be saying such things aren't evil at all. But if so, then why does he define them as evil? There's no point to it.
2. He could be wanting us to do evil so that we have a better appreciation for good. But if so, he would not make 'evil' so very enjoyable and profitable. Lots of 'evil' is fun, and if there's one thing the news has taught me, it's that the truly evil never actually suffer consequences. Just the good people they manipulate.
3. He could be wanting us to do evil so that we have a better appreciation for his forgiveness. But this too is very flawed. Why should I want forgiveness when I'm having such a good time? It's not like there's a visible hell for me to know about, and even lots of Christians don't agree on whether or not there's a hell. So why should I even seek forgiveness?

No, the only way that makes sense was for evil to have been created with the express purpose of our NOT doing it. Which doesn't make sense for other reasons (like, you know, why create it in the first place? Why is there so much of it?)

So I guess really the only thing that actually makes sense is that there is no divine 'good' and 'evil'. Good and evil are relative terms defined by particular circumstances.

By the way, I adore your avatar. Kaa has always been one of my favorite characters.

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07-26-2009, 05:42 PM
Post: #5
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
“As a Gnostic Christian it is my duty to show how Christian scripture should be interpreted…”
When a belief is expressed as logical fact it’s relatively easy to verify. Is that credo a fact or your interpretation of what you think it means to be a Gnostic Christian?
When you state your “facts” you are not offering any verifiable evidence to support your thesis.
Is the use of a few verses of scripture taken out of context, from a Bible that has been transliterated, translated and re translated over the period of approximately 2000 years, and in your own admission, still in need of interpretation your evidence?
Sounds like speculation to me.

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07-27-2009, 12:13 AM
Post: #6
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
Please tell me. What is 'perfect'?
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07-27-2009, 12:56 AM
Post: #7
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
(07-27-2009 12:13 AM)tris4uf Wrote:  Please tell me. What is 'perfect'?

Thank you for that question. I await the response(s) with baited breath...
As for me I have no definition for perfection. I can only speculate that it would have to include everything that exists.

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07-27-2009, 10:12 AM (This post was last modified: 07-27-2009 10:23 AM by Greatest I am.)
Post: #8
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
(07-26-2009 12:19 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  I pointed out the flaw. If god wants us to do evil, then there are a few possibilities, all of them nonsensical.

1. He could be saying such things aren't evil at all. But if so, then why does he define them as evil? There's no point to it.
2. He could be wanting us to do evil so that we have a better appreciation for good. But if so, he would not make 'evil' so very enjoyable and profitable. Lots of 'evil' is fun, and if there's one thing the news has taught me, it's that the truly evil never actually suffer consequences. Just the good people they manipulate.
3. He could be wanting us to do evil so that we have a better appreciation for his forgiveness. But this too is very flawed. Why should I want forgiveness when I'm having such a good time? It's not like there's a visible hell for me to know about, and even lots of Christians don't agree on whether or not there's a hell. So why should I even seek forgiveness?

No, the only way that makes sense was for evil to have been created with the express purpose of our NOT doing it. Which doesn't make sense for other reasons (like, you know, why create it in the first place? Why is there so much of it?)

So I guess really the only thing that actually makes sense is that there is no divine 'good' and 'evil'. Good and evil are relative terms defined by particular circumstances.

By the way, I adore your avatar. Kaa has always been one of my favorite characters.

Thanks.

God does not define good and evil. Man does. We have dominion here.
Who else but man can put words to God's thoughts?

The first God was a man and the last shall be as well.

God is an absentee God unless you have had a personal encounter with Him and all we can do as humans is give God a representative of our choosing.

That is what happened in the past and what will happen in the future.

Regards
DL
(07-26-2009 05:42 PM)Iam Wrote:  “As a Gnostic Christian it is my duty to show how Christian scripture should be interpreted…”
When a belief is expressed as logical fact it’s relatively easy to verify. Is that credo a fact or your interpretation of what you think it means to be a Gnostic Christian?
When you state your “facts” you are not offering any verifiable evidence to support your thesis.
Is the use of a few verses of scripture taken out of context, from a Bible that has been transliterated, translated and re translated over the period of approximately 2000 years, and in your own admission, still in need of interpretation your evidence?
Sounds like speculation to me.

If you look at the selected quotes you will see that a God would have it no other way. That is why it is a logic trail. Religion must make logical sense. If you were God, is that not the way you would plan things?

If not a believer then just change the word God in thee OP and you will see that evolution brings us to the same position.

There is no conflict between what god wants and what nature has created in man.

Regards
DL
(07-27-2009 12:13 AM)tris4uf Wrote:  Please tell me. What is 'perfect'?

Most people see the word perfect as a finished product.
I use the U S version where it uses the term a more perfect union.
Perfection is then allowed to evolve to a more perfect state.

In religious terms. God, in the beginning was alone and perfect. When He added to His universe, He and it did not lose perfection. The initial perfection just evolved to a more perfect state.

Regards
DL
(07-27-2009 12:56 AM)Iam Wrote:  
(07-27-2009 12:13 AM)tris4uf Wrote:  Please tell me. What is 'perfect'?

Thank you for that question. I await the response(s) with baited breath...
As for me I have no definition for perfection. I can only speculate that it would have to include everything that exists.

It does and it is all perfection in evolution.

Regards
DL
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07-27-2009, 04:39 PM
Post: #9
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
So . . . you agree with me that god is either does not exist or he does not have any bearing on our lives. At least, that's what I understand.

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07-27-2009, 07:50 PM (This post was last modified: 07-27-2009 07:57 PM by tris4uf.)
Post: #10
RE: God wants us to sin and repent to earn heaven.
Ok, I don't know how to use that quote effect, so i will use quotation marks for the time being.
---
I am going to start by saying I'm not a christian/religious person. If I say anything that offends anyone reading this, then I apologize.
---
"Religion must make logical sense. If you were God, is that not the way you would plan things?"

Since when does religion make sense? A god with no physical body, who somehow possesses a consciousness; has a son, Jesus, who then ascends into the sky and goes to heaven, to live for all eternity. This god also created humans and made gave them life, which only lasts at most 126 years(at the moment) just so they can die, and go to heaven/hell forever.
---
"There is no conflict between what god wants and what nature has created in man."

what exactly does god want?
---
---
"Most people see the word perfect as a finished product.
I use the U S version where it uses the term a more perfect union.
Perfection is then allowed to evolve to a more perfect state"

So i assume that you mean something along the lines of: Free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless.
In your use of the word perfect?
---
"In religious terms. God, in the beginning was alone and perfect. When He added to His universe, He and it did not lose perfection. The initial perfection just evolved to a more perfect state."

When you say, 'The initial perfection just evolved to a more perfect state', how can something that is faultless, become more faultless? I just can't seem to understand that; explain?
---
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