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Has drinking in moderation been a success?
02-11-2010, 09:48 AM
Post: #1
Has drinking in moderation been a success?
It seems that the Western civilization condones alcohol use in moderation. Shall we call it a success or a failure? Almost 10% of the population is destined to become alcoholic in a society that condones alcohol. The Holy Quran acknowledges that there is some good in alcohol but the problems far outweigh the advantages. Since 1982 more than half a million people have died in alcohol related driving accidents in USA alone, to name only one problem. For additional statistics and references go to:

http://knol.google.com/k/zia-shah/an-int...umbuyp/27#

The Holy Quran completely forbade any alcohol use, should we consider that divine, or you want to tell me that some Greek philosopher also suggested that.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-11-2010, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2010 11:19 AM by minus459.)
Post: #2
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
How many people have died in the US since 1982?

You see statistics can be used and manipulated to prove anything.
Some examples
The life expectancy currently of an Australian male is approximately 78 years
The life expectancy currently of an Australian male smoker is approx 74 years
The life expectancy of the Australian male increased by 9 yrs between 1940 and 1970.
The life expectancy of the Australian male increased by 10 yrs between 1970 and 2000
In that time the governments of Australia have spent Multi billions $ to convince people to stop smoking.
And have succeded, the smoking rate amongst males around 1950 was about 50% around 1970 34% now 17%.
A massive decrease in the percentage of men smoking over 60 yrs and no appreciable increase in the increased life expectancy
A 9yr increase when men were smoking and medical science was learning.
A 10 yr increase when half as many men were smoking and medical science has advanced beyond our wildest imagination.
My point is that the antismoking lobby uses statistics to continue to receive billions$ in funding. But quite simply their stats can be refuted by the same stats
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02-11-2010, 10:30 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2010 10:42 AM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #3
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
I would say that the Western approach to alcohol is considerably more successful than the Islamic attempts to determine whether a Muslim man who has sex with a chicken may:

1) Eat the chicken subsequent to having sex with it
2) Give the chicken to his next-door neighbor to eat
3) Give the chicken to the neighbor two doors down from him

Current Islamic exegesis suggests #3 as the most likely choice, but of course that is subject to change depending on the availability of chickens and/or the lack of nine-year-old slave girls. For details, see Reading Lolita in Tehran.

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02-11-2010, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2010 11:00 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #4
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
(02-11-2010 10:30 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  I would say that the Western approach to alcohol is considerably more successful than the Islamic attempts to determine whether a man who has sex with a chicken.

Please let us inject some utility and reasonability in these discussions. Why don't you stick to the topic here. By your post and minus459's it becomes clear that you are not going to accept even a single quality of Islam. What does this say about your judgment to unbiased readers? Contrast your attitude with the approach of Islam. Even when the Holy Quran was going to absolutely prohibit alcohol, it said there is some good in alcohol.

The Holy Quran codemned the dogmas of Christianity but did not condemn the Christians whole sale. It says:

"And thou shalt assuredly find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ to be the nearest of them in love to the believers. That is because amongst them are savants and monks and because they are not proud." (Al Quran 5:83)

So, please make the forum useful for yourself, me and the readers. It is not a shouting match, let it be an excercise in rationality and reason.

The subject of chicken can go to a new thread if you want. Talk about just alcohol here please.

We need to compare one aspect at a time. Otherwise you could reason, many Christians have been to the moon but no Muslim has set his foot there, Christian God is smarter, so Trinity is true! QED. I will give you that argument.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-11-2010, 11:01 AM
Post: #5
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
(02-11-2010 10:49 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...Why don't you stick to the topic here...

Okay, well, sorry. I guess I'm just a bit bored with all of your constant prosletyzing, your double standards, your pitifully ignorant attacks on the Christian faith, and your inability to own up to the vast problems with Islamic practice and belief. You've been at this for months now, and the best that anyone who has followed your boorish postings can say about Islam is that it is "worse than useless."

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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02-11-2010, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2010 11:28 AM by minus459.)
Post: #6
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
Point taken Ahmadi, but if you can still answer my question to whit:How many people have died in the US since 1982? and relate that to your contention contained in the name of this thread I would appreciate it.
Because your contention as demonstrated by your given example is fatuous. How many of those half a million would be alive today and how do you know. In Victoria a state in Australia, the authorities tell us that 25% of fatalities on our roads involve alcohol. That means that 75% don't. So perhaps if everybody drank we would have less fatalities on the roads. A stupid assumption I'm sure you agree, just as stupid as saying that because many billions of consumptions of alcohol have occured in the past 20yrs and half a million people have died on the roads is proof of your thread.

So in answer: Yes it has been an unqualified success.
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02-11-2010, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2010 11:41 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #7
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
(02-11-2010 11:12 AM)minus459 Wrote:  Point taken Ahmadi ...

It would be hard for me to become a statistics teacher here. But let me just say that half a million deaths due to alcohol related accidents are just that. Take upto 50 million deaths in World War II, even if they had not died then, they would be dead by now. But, I have never known any one argue that no harm was done in World War II, because humans eventually die, no matter what!

That was only the first piece of statistics. There are half a million links on google if you do a search on 'binge drinking.' So, I guess I can keep going until the second coming of Jesus. I guess he will then silence me with his convincing arguments in favor of Christianity!

Nearly half of America's 5.4 million full-time college students abuse drugs or drink alcohol on binges at least once a month, according to a new study that portrays substance and alcohol abuse as an increasingly urgent problem on campuses across the nation.
Alcohol remains the favored substance of abuse on college campuses by far, but the abuse of prescription drugs and marijuana has increased dramatically since the mid-1990s, according to the study released today by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA) at Columbia University.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...drug-use_N.htm

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-11-2010, 11:55 AM
Post: #8
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
Let me see if I can get this straight, a small percentage of Americans apparently abuse alcohol (other drugs are not part of your contention) and this equates to the belief that drinking alcohol in moderation is somehow BAD.
Perhaps you can explain that further (please use a link that works). The adult population of America, I'm guessing (because I'm too lazy to look) , is 180 million and your accusing how many of abusing, and thereby being abusive of others, alcohol?
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02-11-2010, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2010 12:17 PM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #9
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
The population is 300 million.

Any person who uses alcohol in moderation and does not drive after a drink can, of course, get away with getting in a traffic accident under influence.

We are evaluating at a societal level. It is an established fact that almost 10% of individuals, in any society that allows alcohol use, become alcoholics. These alcoholics do not have any control over this process, this is their destiny. For all I know, I could have been one of them, but I have never tasted alcohol and never will, so we will never know. So, the question is of society and law. We could change our US society by not allowing alcohol in public places and by higly taxing it and not allowing beer commercials during the super bowl etc. If the population decides to do this or any one state decides to do this, it could be gradually implemented.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-11-2010, 12:15 PM
Post: #10
RE: Has drinking in moderation been a success?
So, because 90% of the population uses it responsibly, alcohol should be banned? I reject utterly any institution/society that would punish 90% of the population for the failings of 10%.

By the same logic, we should ban automobiles because a far greater percentage of drivers drive over the speed limits, and speed-related auto deaths make up a significant portion of all auto-related deaths.

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