Poll: What religion did Hitler personally follow?
This poll is closed.
Atheism 66.67% 2 66.67%
Pantheism 0% 0 0%
Social Darwinism 0% 0 0%
Other 33.33% 1 33.33%
Total 3 votes 100%
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Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
06-23-2009, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 06-23-2009 03:26 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #1
Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
We know that Hitler tried at first to maintain a public pretense of some sort of religiosity; nevertheless, Hitler's private convictions as revealed by his closest associates indicate a deep level of animosity toward the religion he grew up with as a child.

Here are some relevant quotes from Wikipedia:

"after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments"

"Hitler expressed his opinion about God and religion as follows, 'We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany.'"

"Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: 'The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay.' Albert Speer reports a similar statement: 'You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?'"

"By 1940 it was public knowledge that Hitler had abandoned advocating for Germans even the syncretist idea of a positive Christianty."

"Hitler was not a practicing Christian, but believed in Arthur de Gobineau's ideas of struggle for survival between the different races, among which the 'Aryan race' — guided by a pantheistic providence — was supposed to be the torchbearers of civilization. In Hitler's conception, Jews were enemies of all civilization, especially the Volk; this idea was rooted in an ideology based on Social Darwinism and antisemitism."


So the question is, what "religion" did Hitler personally hold?

Was it Atheism ("We do not want any other god than Germany itself")?

Was it Pantheism ("guided by a pantheistic providence")

Was it Social Darwinism ("an ideology based on Social Darwinism and antisemitism")?

What's your best guess on this matter?

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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06-23-2009, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 06-23-2009 04:04 PM by Anglican.)
Post: #2
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
This is a sterile debate. You know atheists are going to find a way of rubbishing any evidence which goes against what they want to believe, don't you?

As sick as social Darwinism was as an idea, Hitler's actions go well beyond what even the eugenics crew would have been prepared to sanction.
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06-23-2009, 04:23 PM
Post: #3
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
(06-23-2009 03:28 PM)Anglican Wrote:  This is a sterile debate. You know atheists are going to find a way of rubbishing any evidence which goes against what they want to believe, don't you?

I guess I'm an eternal optimist--I keep thinking that at least some atheists might be open to reason and evidence.

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06-23-2009, 08:13 PM
Post: #4
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
What are you trying to prove by this, granted Hitler was in all probability an atheist, did this cause him to do what he did? No he was motivated by irrational hatred, a desire for power, a whole bunch of other doctrines seperate from any sort of atheistic ideology.
Whats most distrubing in the case of Hitler is:
1) His endorsement by the pope who also advocated Mussolini's fascists
2)His use of this religious endorsement and religion in general to gather support and help create his horrific regime
as to athiest not listening to reason, your just being patronising, and imlying your the only ones to hold a reasonable belief, im pretty sure many athiests would say similar things about you, besides which they never appeal to 'belief' if their arguments begin to look a little tenuos

my atheism is just like your religion
only i subtract 1 one more god
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06-23-2009, 08:30 PM
Post: #5
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
(06-23-2009 08:13 PM)athos123 Wrote:  ...Hitler was in all probability an atheist...

I just wanted to get this discussion out in the open, since I have been accused by atheists here on this forum for "lying" because I said that Hitler was an atheist.


(06-23-2009 08:13 PM)athos123 Wrote:  ...did this cause him to do what he did? No he was motivated by...a whole bunch of other doctrines seperate from any sort of atheistic ideology...

Perhaps.


(06-23-2009 08:13 PM)athos123 Wrote:  ...Whats most distrubing in the case of Hitler is...His endorsement by the pope...

This looks like an interesting book: The Myth of Hitler's Pope


(06-23-2009 08:13 PM)athos123 Wrote:  ...as to athiest not listening to reason, your just being patronising, and imlying your the only ones to hold a reasonable belief, im pretty sure many athiests would say similar things about you...

Actually I was simply putting the shoe on the other foot for a change.

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06-23-2009, 08:54 PM
Post: #6
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
ok one book does not an argument make, nor am i going to read every book you post to make a poinbt, set out your own ideas and evidence rather then constantly quoting large books that no one wants to read for the sake of one thread on a forum. If you want i can direct you at books showing the details of the popes endorsement, but hey stick to webpages please, or making your points in the post.
Anyway my point was that Hitler used religion to some extent to acheive what he did, showing that it can be a dangerous force.

my atheism is just like your religion
only i subtract 1 one more god
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06-24-2009, 04:17 AM (This post was last modified: 06-24-2009 04:33 AM by Anglican.)
Post: #7
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
(06-23-2009 08:13 PM)athos123 Wrote:  What are you trying to prove by this, granted Hitler was in all probability an atheist, did this cause him to do what he did? No he was motivated by irrational hatred, a desire for power, a whole bunch of other doctrines seperate from any sort of atheistic ideology.

Well the medieval popes were probably motivated by a desire to hang onto their power, rather than by a careful reading of the NT. But are atheists thereby restrained from using their deeds to cast a slur on Christianity? You must be joking. With Hitler and Stalin, on the other hand, it quickly gets explained that their deeds had nothing to do with them being atheists.

Hypocrisy I believe is the name for that.
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06-24-2009, 05:06 AM
Post: #8
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
We dont say were better and more moral than the other guy for holding our beliefs, you frequently do, you set the standards as being better than us, thus you fall further. If you are to claim that people should follow all the tenants of your faith as it is the most moral and pure the cases were it prevents immoral action are more likely to be picked on. Nor are atheists immune from such criticism as you yourself have demonstrated with the quite familiar Hitler argument.

On top of this there have been few people who use their atheism as a justification to engage in cruel and spiteful acts, but history is filled with cases where religion was used to justify acts of extreme cruelty. In the christian tradition you have the atrocities of the crusades, the spanish inquisition and the role of the church in the oppression of the people during the middle ages. Communism and patriotism have been used to justify atrocities in the same league as these 'evil' actions but im yet to hear of a case were a mere lack of faith was used in an attempt to justify or as motivation for such actions.

If religion does not prevent these tragedies and atheism does not create them, can religion claim to be truly beneficial to human kind within this physical world along the ground of saving us from the evils of mind shown in Hitler and Stalin (ignoring any 'spiritual' benefits)

my atheism is just like your religion
only i subtract 1 one more god
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06-24-2009, 05:43 AM
Post: #9
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
(06-24-2009 05:06 AM)athos123 Wrote:  We dont say were better and more moral than the other guy for holding our beliefs, you frequently do, you set the standards as being better than us, thus you fall further...

Um, I have heard numerous atheists claim that "religion" is the cause of all evil and all wars--simply eliminate "religion," they say, and all evil and all wars would instantly cease.

If you disagree with these claims, it would be helpful to make that point clear once in a while for the sake of the other atheists on this forum who want to set atheism up as the last best hope for humankind.


(06-24-2009 05:06 AM)athos123 Wrote:  ...there have been few people who use their atheism as a justification to engage in cruel and spiteful acts, but history is filled with cases where religion was used to justify acts of extreme cruelty...

Okay, I guess you are claiming that "religion" is the cause of the majority of evil and all wars--simply eliminate "religion," and the majority of evil and the majority of wars would instantly cease. But based on the same reasoning that you used for Hitler, wouldn't it be more accurate to say instead that evils and wars are usually "motivated by irrational hatred, a desire for power, a whole bunch of other doctrines," rather than simply blame this or that "religion"?


(06-24-2009 05:06 AM)athos123 Wrote:  ...In the christian tradition you have the atrocities of the crusades, the spanish inquisition and the role of the church in the oppression of the people during the middle ages...

Well, the supposed "atrocities" of the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition have been blown up to mythic proportions, but you've already said you're not going to research the other side of this story.


(06-24-2009 05:06 AM)athos123 Wrote:  ...Communism and patriotism have been used to justify atrocities in the same league as these 'evil' actions but im yet to hear of a case were a mere lack of faith was used in an attempt to justify or as motivation for such actions...

No, in this case it was the presence of faith that was used to justify the evil actions by the state against its people. I have an aunt in the former Soviet Union who was imprisoned under horrible conditions for three years--for the "crime" of teaching a Sunday School class for children.


(06-24-2009 05:06 AM)athos123 Wrote:  ...If religion does not prevent these tragedies and atheism does not create them, can religion claim to be truly beneficial to human kind within this physical world along the ground of saving us from the evils of mind shown in Hitler and Stalin...

Christians have resisted Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others, and Christians have paid a heavy price for doing so.

Given the constant harping we hear about "religious violence," it should not go unmentioned that atheists were responsible for the deaths of more people in the 20th century alone than all of the so-called "religious wars" of all previous centuries combined. This of course is not to say that "religious violence" is anything other than evil, but we do need to keep things in proper perspective.

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06-24-2009, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 06-24-2009 06:19 AM by Anglican.)
Post: #10
RE: Hitler: Atheist, Pantheist, or What?
(06-24-2009 05:06 AM)athos123 Wrote:  On top of this there have been few people who use their atheism as a justification to engage in cruel and spiteful acts,

Oh well, I suppose that is an improvement upon Dawkins, who thinks it never happens. Not much of an improvement though.


Quote:Communism and patriotism have been used to justify atrocities in the same league as these 'evil' actions but im yet to hear of a case were a mere lack of faith was used in an attempt to justify or as motivation for such actions.

There is no such thing as a lack of faith. Human beings will always go looking for some creed to sign up to, because the need for it seems to be hardwired into them. The Social Darwinism of the early twentieth century, for example, was an attempt to make science answer not just some of life's questions, but all of life's questions, and the omni-competence of science was the creed.


Quote:If religion does not prevent these tragedies

For as long as their are human beings on this planet, nothing will prevent them from committing evil deeds. Sometimes grossly evil.


Quote:and atheism does not create them,

Human beings create them, and that includes those human beings who are atheists. Who is trying to wear the cloke of self righteousness now?


Quote:can religion claim to be truly beneficial to human kind within this physical world along the ground of saving us from the evils of mind shown in Hitler and Stalin (ignoring any 'spiritual' benefits)

That is a bit like asking whether gravity is benificial. If God exists, then he exists.
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