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How do we Identify a Prophet?
10-02-2009, 06:32 PM
Post: #1
How do we Identify a Prophet?
How do we Identify a Prophet?

When HaShem sends a prophet, He gives the prophet a sign to show that he is a true prophet. However, not every person who shows such a sign is automatically accepted. The prophet must be known to be a great, wise, and righteous person. If he is such a person, then we are commanded to accept and obey him if he comes with a sign.

The sign that a prophet must give to prove he is genuine need not be a miracle. He must predict a future event, if his prophecy is fulfilled with perfect accuracy then we believe him, if, however, even the smallest detail is inaccurate then he is a false prophet. We must test a prophet in this manner several times but we are not permitted to overly test him.

Even if a prophet passes all of these tests if he attempts to contradict the Torah in any way he is automatically shown to be false. This requirement can disqualify any prophet at any time. A prophet may not add or detract from the Torah in any way, this applies to both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Therefore, any prophet who claims that a certain mitzvah is no longer required or that a new mitzvah has been added to the Torah shows himself to be a false prophet and is judged accordingly. This is true even if he performs miracles

Prophecy is a difficult state to obtain because, in addition to the demands it makes on the individual, it also requires a very high state of holiness in the general environment

Despite the great stature of the prophets, no matter of Jewish law can be decided by the means of prophecy or any other form of Divine inspiration. When a question of Jewish law is concerned a prophet is no better than any other sage

A prophet who is shown to be false is liable for the death penalty as it says in Devarim 18:20, "But the prophet who shall willfully speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or one who speaks in the name of the gods of others - that prophet shall die."


The theme of this chapter is false prophets
http://www.613.org/smiles/yer/chap23.htm
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10-03-2009, 12:18 AM
Post: #2
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
(10-02-2009 06:32 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  How do we Identify a Prophet?

When HaShem sends a prophet, He gives the prophet a sign to show that he is a true prophet. However, not every person who shows such a sign is automatically accepted. The prophet must be known to be a great, wise, and righteous person. If he is such a person, then we are commanded to accept and obey him if he comes with a sign.

The sign that a prophet must give to prove he is genuine need not be a miracle. He must predict a future event, if his prophecy is fulfilled with perfect accuracy then we believe him, if, however, even the smallest detail is inaccurate then he is a false prophet. We must test a prophet in this manner several times but we are not permitted to overly test him.

Even if a prophet passes all of these tests if he attempts to contradict the Torah in any way he is automatically shown to be false. This requirement can disqualify any prophet at any time. A prophet may not add or detract from the Torah in any way, this applies to both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Therefore, any prophet who claims that a certain mitzvah is no longer required or that a new mitzvah has been added to the Torah shows himself to be a false prophet and is judged accordingly. This is true even if he performs miracles

Prophecy is a difficult state to obtain because, in addition to the demands it makes on the individual, it also requires a very high state of holiness in the general environment

Despite the great stature of the prophets, no matter of Jewish law can be decided by the means of prophecy or any other form of Divine inspiration. When a question of Jewish law is concerned a prophet is no better than any other sage

A prophet who is shown to be false is liable for the death penalty as it says in Devarim 18:20, "But the prophet who shall willfully speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or one who speaks in the name of the gods of others - that prophet shall die."


The theme of this chapter is false prophets
http://www.613.org/smiles/yer/chap23.htm

What about God warning people before some thing happens.
So that they might avoid it happening.

If some one was given a Warning from God then couldn't they stop it from happening granted that it was Gods will?

Like when Mosses told Pharaoh let my people go or else my God will do this and that to you. Then all those things happened After Pharaoh decided not to listen to the Warning.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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10-03-2009, 12:22 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2009 12:27 AM by catholicstation.)
Post: #3
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
(10-03-2009 12:18 AM)Azrael17 Wrote:  
(10-02-2009 06:32 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  How do we Identify a Prophet?

When HaShem sends a prophet, He gives the prophet a sign to show that he is a true prophet. However, not every person who shows such a sign is automatically accepted. The prophet must be known to be a great, wise, and righteous person. If he is such a person, then we are commanded to accept and obey him if he comes with a sign.

The sign that a prophet must give to prove he is genuine need not be a miracle. He must predict a future event, if his prophecy is fulfilled with perfect accuracy then we believe him, if, however, even the smallest detail is inaccurate then he is a false prophet. We must test a prophet in this manner several times but we are not permitted to overly test him.

Even if a prophet passes all of these tests if he attempts to contradict the Torah in any way he is automatically shown to be false. This requirement can disqualify any prophet at any time. A prophet may not add or detract from the Torah in any way, this applies to both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Therefore, any prophet who claims that a certain mitzvah is no longer required or that a new mitzvah has been added to the Torah shows himself to be a false prophet and is judged accordingly. This is true even if he performs miracles

Prophecy is a difficult state to obtain because, in addition to the demands it makes on the individual, it also requires a very high state of holiness in the general environment

Despite the great stature of the prophets, no matter of Jewish law can be decided by the means of prophecy or any other form of Divine inspiration. When a question of Jewish law is concerned a prophet is no better than any other sage

A prophet who is shown to be false is liable for the death penalty as it says in Devarim 18:20, "But the prophet who shall willfully speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or one who speaks in the name of the gods of others - that prophet shall die."


The theme of this chapter is false prophets
http://www.613.org/smiles/yer/chap23.htm

What about God warning people before some thing happens.
So that they might avoid it happening.

If some one was given a Warning from God then couldn't they stop it from happening granted that it was Gods will?

Like when Mosses told Pharaoh let my people go or else my God will do this and that to you. Then all those things happened After Pharaoh decided not to listen to the Warning.

Five causes of error in revelations


Private Revelations and the Discernment of Spirits
St. Joan of Arc in prison had a revelation that she would be delivered by a great victory--it was her martyrdom, which she did not suspect.
http://www.catholic-pages.com/bvm/privat...ations.asp
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10-04-2009, 11:36 PM
Post: #4
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
(10-03-2009 12:22 AM)catholicstation Wrote:  Five causes of error in revelations[/b][/i]

Private Revelations and the Discernment of Spirits
St. Joan of Arc in prison had a revelation that she would be delivered by a great victory--it was her martyrdom, which she did not suspect.
http://www.catholic-pages.com/bvm/privat...ations.asp

So does that mean she predicted a victory then she turned out to be wrong?
And so ended up dead.

Was Mosses considered a Prophet?

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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12-05-2009, 08:51 AM
Post: #5
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
Hi,

I am actually in a true depth of finding the actually meaning for prophecy and abouit the prophets as, what is the origination and are they still alive or will they take a birth again, all these questions floats in my mind and I seriously deeply want to study about this.

Thanks!

Christian Counseling Dallas
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12-12-2009, 08:27 AM
Post: #6
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
(12-05-2009 08:51 AM)namratasnv Wrote:  Hi,

I am actually in a true depth of finding the actually meaning for prophecy and abouit the prophets as, what is the origination and are they still alive or will they take a birth again, all these questions floats in my mind and I seriously deeply want to study about this.

Thanks!

There is only 1 reason for a Prophet after Christ
- to warn of The False Prophet of Islam - "Mohammed" -
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01-12-2010, 03:03 PM
Post: #7
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
The thread starts with a comment that includes, "Even if a prophet passes all of these tests if he attempts to contradict the Torah in any way he is automatically shown to be false. This requirement can disqualify any prophet at any time."

But what if believers have contradictory understanding of the same verse, which one should the hopeful prohet fulfill? And according to the Jewish and the Christian faith are any true prophets scheduled to come?
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01-16-2010, 09:34 PM
Post: #8
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
(01-12-2010 03:03 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  The thread starts with a comment that includes, "Even if a prophet passes all of these tests if he attempts to contradict the Torah in any way he is automatically shown to be false. This requirement can disqualify any prophet at any time."

But what if believers have contradictory understanding of the same verse, which one should the hopeful prohet fulfill? And according to the Jewish and the Christian faith are any true prophets scheduled to come?

It is not that there haven't been any prophets in a long time it's just that people got tired of listing to the ones who claimed to talk to god.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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04-02-2017, 03:31 PM
Post: #9
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
I put in question CatholicStation's main idea.
He writes:
(10-02-2009 06:32 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  How do we Identify a Prophet?

When HaShem sends a prophet, He gives the prophet a sign to show that he is a true prophet. However, not every person who shows such a sign is automatically accepted. The prophet must be known to be a great, wise, and righteous person. If he is such a person, then we are commanded to accept and obey him if he comes with a sign.
The Biblical canon's books' narratives ended in the 1st c. AD. After then, another prophet who comes is not in the Biblical books. So what basis does the OP have the demand obedience to some latter day "prophet" who is outside the Biblical books. Even a righteous person is not personally infallible. A prophet is not your personal bishop or The Pope of Rome either.

At most, the words of holy people (like Martin Luther King Jr.? Gandhi? St. Augustine?) should be respected, but they are not infallible or your adopted parent.

The other problem is what he said about the sign requirement:
Quote:The sign that a prophet must give to prove he is genuine need not be a miracle. He must predict a future event, if his prophecy is fulfilled with perfect accuracy then we believe him, if, however, even the smallest detail is inaccurate then he is a false prophet. We must test a prophet in this manner several times but we are not permitted to overly test him.
This part about "overly testing" a prophet sounds ridiculous. What is "overly testing"? Catholic station is claiming that "if even the smallest detail is inaccurate then he is a false prophet." Is that "overly testing"? If not, then it means you can test the prophets in even the smallest details, so it sounds impossible to "overtest" their prophecies, be possible only to "mistakenly test" them.

The other problem is what qualifies as a sign. Since there are many explanations for prophecies (like coincidence), a "sign" might not be proof either. It sounds like a potentially dangerous way to get sucked into a personality cult around some modern "prophet".


The last part is in question even by the Bible's standards, and I would welcome anyone to give an answer to the question I raise below. CatholicStation claimed:
Quote:A prophet who is shown to be false is liable for the death penalty as it says in Devarim 18:20, "But the prophet who shall willfully speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or one who speaks in the name of the gods of others - that prophet shall die."

The theme of this chapter is false prophets
http://www.613.org/smiles/yer/chap23.htm
My question is about Jeremiah 28. In the Book of Jeremiah, Jeremiah has a contest with Hananiah. Jeremiah predicts doom and Hananiah predicts blessings. Jeremiah replies that only promises of blessings are the way to test a prophet, because the Lord could show mercy and not fulfill a prophecy of doom (as with the case of Jonah's story).

How can anyone square Jonah's story or Jeremiah's debate with Hananiah with Devarim 18? It looks like Devarim 18 cannot be taken at face value but only taken to apply to situations of blessings, or at most, blessings together with prophecies of punishment wherein the possibly punished people didn't repent.

Still, I think the OP is raising an important question of the reliability of prophecy that I discussed on my blog (http://www.religionforums.org/Thread-rako17-Blog).
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04-02-2017, 03:35 PM
Post: #10
RE: How do we Identify a Prophet?
Well done Rako, I think 2009 is your necro record!

And of course you are also reaching for a record in "number of times mentioning your own thread" - you must be at around the 20 times mark now Wink

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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