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How is God perfect?
07-22-2013, 10:43 PM
Post: #1
How is God perfect?
What has God ever done that is perfect? Why does the creator of a universe necessarily have to be perfect? Wouldn't it be possible to have a God or Gods that can create a universe and not be perfect? Like the Greek Gods. Immortal beings with amazing powers yet still flawed in many ways.

To me a perfect universe would be an infinite amount of hydrogen atoms evenly spaced across the entire universe. As soon as 2 hydrogen atoms fused into an atom of helium the universe would no longer be perfect.

How can you have a perfect rock or a perfect star or a perfect life form?

Back to God..how is he perfect? According to the Bible when Moses was fleeing Egypt, God used the Red Sea to kill the pursuing Egyptians. How can a perfect God commit murder? Couldn't he safely just place the Egyptian soldiers back in their homes? I mean he is God right? If he chose to commit murder over a less bloody solution wouldn't that make him not perfect?

Also the story of Noah and the flood has God wiping out life across the entire planet. Billions of innocent animals and plants killed because of Mankind's sins. That doesn't sound like a perfect solution to me.

God forbids us to worship any other God than him. That sounds a lot like jealousy. Not an emotion you would expect from a perfect being.

Also there are times when a perfect solution is not possible. Lets say your house is burning and your parents are inside and unconscious. You can rush in but there's only time to carry one of them out. You have to choose to save either your mom or your dad. It is impossible to make a perfect decision in that case.

So we obviously live in an imperfect universe yet I'm supposed to believe that it was created by a perfect being.

So I ask again. What is perfect? And what has God ever done that is perfect?
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07-22-2013, 11:22 PM
Post: #2
RE: How is God perfect?
Aren't we creating God in our own image if we are the ones defining what "perfection" must be? Hm.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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07-23-2013, 06:10 AM (This post was last modified: 07-23-2013 06:11 AM by Achrelos.)
Post: #3
RE: How is God perfect?
Id just like to point out one thing. Hellenists don't believe that the gods are flawed. That is seen as just using them to make a point through allagory.

Ištu dumqim amqut, u anaku anmiq
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07-23-2013, 06:50 PM (This post was last modified: 07-23-2013 06:55 PM by chucknance.)
Post: #4
RE: How is God perfect?
In the Old Testament, the Lord God is vengeful toward those who opposed His people or those who disobey His commandments, but at the same time the Lord is Holy and everlasting. Can the Lord be both judgmental and holy? From the human perspective, God should not oppose some creatures while favoring others. After all, a perfect being should not discriminate, especially when it created all creatures. Did God create some creatures to be more equal than others?

Perhaps, we need to define holiness, for that is the term often applied to God. Does holiness mean perfection? If it does, then God is perfect. The problem for humans is they judge God based on human standards. Human opinion or judgement of God however doesn't have any consequences for God's holiness, or perfection.

On another basis, we can say God is perfect because God is eternal. As an eternal being, God has no peers. Every action of God therefore becomes perfect. Since there are no other eternal beings to judge God's actions or determine God's degree of holiness (an absurd idea inasmuch as holiness means perfection), God's nature is perfect.

Perfect also means error-less or making no mistakes. How can a perfect being make mistakes? Humans can of course judge God. However, humans are not on equal footing with God, they are not holy and they are not eternal. In short, an imperfect being cannot judge a holy God. Humans do judge God and even barter with God for different outcomes. If God's actions are perfect, however, how much can we influence God's will?

Another thing that separates us from God is freewill. God has given creatures freewill to opposed or accept His will, His commandments, His holiness, and therefore His perfection. God will never change, God will always be holy and perfect.

My ideas are of course subject to disagreement by others on this forum.
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07-23-2013, 07:16 PM
Post: #5
RE: How is God perfect?
[Image: victimcard.jpg]

He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how. - Nietzsche
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07-23-2013, 08:12 PM
Post: #6
RE: How is God perfect?
The idea the thought of Perfection gives rise to the thought the idea of Imperfection.

To see some thing as beautful is to see other things as ugly.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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07-23-2013, 09:28 PM
Post: #7
RE: How is God perfect?
Am I the only one that finds it vindictive that supposedly god gave us free will to disobey him, oof his own free will, and then when we do it (because he gave us that power) we get punished.

Like really, why would something all powerful do that? For kicks? Just don't give us that poower if you want us to follow your rules.

Just my oppinion, of course, but I'm sure others are of the same.

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07-23-2013, 10:01 PM (This post was last modified: 07-23-2013 10:11 PM by chucknance.)
Post: #8
RE: How is God perfect?
(07-23-2013 09:28 PM)Achrelos Wrote:  Am I the only one that finds it vindictive that supposedly god gave us free will to disobey him, oof his own free will, and then when we do it (because he gave us that power) we get punished.

Like really, why would something all powerful do that? For kicks? Just don't give us that poower if you want us to follow your rules.

Just my oppinion, of course, but I'm sure others are of the same.

Maybe we misuse freewill. If God is the ultimate judge, how can we determine right action? Are we our own moral authority?


(07-23-2013 09:28 PM)Achrelos Wrote:  Am I the only one that finds it vindictive that supposedly god gave us free will to disobey him, oof his own free will, and then when we do it (because he gave us that power) we get punished.

Like really, why would something all powerful do that? For kicks? Just don't give us that poower if you want us to follow your rules.

Just my oppinion, of course, but I'm sure others are of the same.

Doesn't freewill mean the opportunity to make right choices? How do you know if you make right choices? Is it because you know? If so, you don't need God.
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07-23-2013, 10:10 PM
Post: #9
RE: How is God perfect?
Well if god is perfect then he ultimately should have known we would. It isn't perfection to give someone something not knowing what they will do with it, or knowing they will missuse it.

I don't give my three year old sister a sharp knife and tell her "don't be dangerous." I know that if I give it to her she will missuse it and be dangerous, even if it isn't necearoly purpoeful.. But if I do, should I scold her? It int her fault she doesn't know how to use it, its my fault for giving it to her before she was ready.

And would it be free will if we didn't use it contradictory to "gods word?" I mean, that's like saying "do whatever you want as long as its what I said." Its contraditiory.

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07-23-2013, 10:50 PM
Post: #10
RE: How is God perfect?
(07-23-2013 10:10 PM)Achrelos Wrote:  Well if god is perfect then he ultimately should have known we would. It isn't perfection to give someone something not knowing what they will do with it, or knowing they will missuse it.

I don't give my three year old sister a sharp knife and tell her "don't be dangerous." I know that if I give it to her she will missuse it and be dangerous, even if it isn't necearoly purpoeful.. But if I do, should I scold her? It int her fault she doesn't know how to use it, its my fault for giving it to her before she was ready.

And would it be free will if we didn't use it contradictory to "gods word?" I mean, that's like saying "do whatever you want as long as its what I said." Its contraditiory.

In my opinion, even if God knows what we do before hand, doesn't mean we have no responsibility to obey his commandments, or do what is required.

So, a person disobeys God's commandments or refuses to accept His will, and God knows that will happen, does that make God guilty? If so, guilty of what? Is it guilty of not changing things so it won't happen? Even though God knows all things, past and present, doesn't mean God is required to change things. If God did change outcomes based on knowledge of future events, then God would not be perfect. Assuming God is perfect, there are no changes.

Then, we have life as it was given to us. A little girl without supervision may injury herself or even others. Is that God's fault? You can say yes, he put that little girt there to make it happen. Then, if we assume God is perfect, how is that possible?

Maybe, in the ultimate scheme of things we are all victims. I believe we are collateral damage from Satan's rebellion against God. That is of course a huge stretch to defend a victim. However, what if it is true? Under those circumstances of the little girl being victimized, is it justified? That doesn't demean the plight of the little girl, it just puts things into context.

Remember when Abraham was told to sacrifice his son? Was that the right thing to do? Was God a monster? Every person has to make a decision about God. Do we accept life as it has been given, or do we condemn God because of wrong outcomes. For myself, several things have happened to make my life miserable. However, I have made choices that have turned things around. So, whose fault is it? That is the most important question. Even if things had not turned out well for me, would I still love and respect God? That is the most important question.

That is of course my opinion.
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