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I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
07-03-2010, 12:01 PM
Post: #1
I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
OK some of these are things I mentioned in my book and some I have just done here, either way - most atheists will often pride themselves with a logical approach to complex questions, respectively they'll often want hard evidence in subject(s) that are often more complex than the human mind can ever compare to, moreover religion, faith and other things often go beyond logic and reasion but that doesn't nesassarily make it wrong; anyway, considering most atheists will usually not believe in God, Faith etc and they often call people who do ignorrant, blind faith blah blah blah.... So, atheists, I challenge you for a change opposed to your always challenging faith and religion and if YOU can give 100% concrete evidence that you guys seem to always pride yourselves on then I will be shocked and so will other religious people on here (please bare in mind, I don't follow any "traditional" religions, mine is derived from knowledge, experience, wisdom and other things from the past), with that said I don't want any religion specific answers, so let's try to keep your answers generic OK.




1) PROVE there isn't a God, Devil, Heaven and Hell - actually prove it 100%

2)There are two ways earth was created, either possibly via God or God(s) or similar, or say the big bang theory or something along those lines... now, my question is, even if you say (and likely will the big bang theory or something alike) then prove it, bare in mind the big bang theory is only a theory, a hypothesis, an IDEA it's not fact, it's just a possible even just like God or something along those lines.

3)At the beginning, THE VERY beginning when earth was almost a blank round canvas, what was the first life on earth (maybe you're thinking a plant of some-sort?) maybe maybe not. Whatever you answer, how did that living thing become to be in a such a place, through oxygen, water etc - so if you believe the darwin theory (<- keyword, theory) then we are really derived from the very first living entity on earth? OK prove it

4)I personally believe things like deja vu's are a message from God, I have actually had dreams that I have remembered and written down, and these events exactly have happened as I remember, explain that, moreover, scientists claim that deja vu's are a glitch in the brain (never proved though) but how do you explain something you have written down that has happened a finite amount of time after?

I have hundreds of questions I could ask actually but I can't be bothered, but what you will find with the above questions is you may have an idea, hypothesis, theory, or logical answer but you can't prove or disprove any of them can you? the answer is no it's as simple as that!


And don't bother posting back with questions, or link refferals, I just want your personal opinion based upon what you know.
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07-03-2010, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2010 03:02 PM by GTseng3.)
Post: #2
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
Your post is specious and has no basis. Every single one of these theories asks for 100% proof. Which simply isn't how science works. "AHA!" cries the faithful. "Then it must be wrong!" No, that's stupid. Scientific theories give us an almost completely proven idea of how the world works. The possibility of these theories being false is often extremely miniscule, and in many cases we have actually based entire industries and technology on the assumption that these theories are true (space flight, electronics, and medicine for three, which could not function as they do now without the theories of gravity, atomic theory, and evolution respectively). I will further note that the religious have no evidence. None. No evidence, no proof, nothing.

Isaac Asimov once said, "When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Keep that in mind.

(07-03-2010 12:01 PM)CraigFox Wrote:  1) PROVE there isn't a God, Devil, Heaven and Hell - actually prove it 100%

You don't really understand how this "rationality" thing works, do you? We have not proven gravity, or atomic theory. And yet we build computers that rely on atomic theory to function. We build spaceships that rely on gravitational theory to fly. A rational person is fine with this. It is only the religious that want to know 100%. And, strangely enough, this leads them most often to believe in something that can be completely disproven.

Now, I can't prove that there's no "god" or "devil" or "heaven" or "hell", because those are not individual things. God can be anything. Heck, some religions say god is all of us, and I can actually prove to a reasonable degree that we exist. Same with all the rest. You give me a specific god to disprove, and I'll probably do a fair job of it. For instance, the literal god of the Old Testament created the world in 7 days, about 6,000 years ago. Geology, astronomy, physics, biology, paleontology, archeology, and dozens of other independent disciplines all have shown that this is utterly impossible. Likewise a worldwide flood would have left clear geological evidence that does not exist. So we can prove that either A. that particular god does not exist, or B. our entire reality is an illusion and it doesn't matter anyway.

See how that works?

Also, I'll be the first to say that atheism isn't proven. But it is RATIONAL. Because evolution is as proven as anything gets, and abiogenesis and the big bang theory aren't far behind. This renders god unnecessary. Also the utter lack of ANY evidence of any kind of god would indicate that god either doesn't exist, or stays out of things. Because of this, the RATIONAL response is that there is no god. This will remain the rational response until someone can show some evidence of god's existence. Because at the moment, god's on par with the invisible pink unicorn, and the tooth fairy. Scratch that, actually, the tooth fairy at least has some evidence of money left behind. So the tooth fairy is more likely than god.

Quote:2)There are two ways earth was created, either possibly via God or God(s) or similar, or say the big bang theory or something along those lines... now, my question is, even if you say (and likely will the big bang theory or something alike) then prove it, bare in mind the big bang theory is only a theory, a hypothesis, an IDEA it's not fact, it's just a possible even just like God or something along those lines.

No, you had it right the first time. The big bang theory is a theory. A theory is a hypothesis that has been tested, with solid evidence pointing to its accuracy. NASA has sent many probes to test falsifiable predictions made by the big bang theory (mostly dealing with how the microwave background radiation would look were the big bang theory accurate), and those probes have all come back with proof of those predictions. So it is, in fact, a solid theory. Far more than just an idea or a hypothesis.

So, we have the big bang theory. A solid, tested theory with evidence behind it. And then we have... well, really, the idea of god isn't even a hypothesis. A hypothesis has to make solid, testable, falsifiable predictions of some kind. Which the god theory doesn't. So... yeah, it's not even on the table.
Quote:3)At the beginning, THE VERY beginning when earth was almost a blank round canvas, what was the first life on earth (maybe you're thinking a plant of some-sort?) maybe maybe not. Whatever you answer, how did that living thing become to be in a such a place, through oxygen, water etc - so if you believe the darwin theory (<- keyword, theory) then we are really derived from the very first living entity on earth? OK prove it

You haven't really actually bothered studying abiogenesis, have you? And yes, it is abiogenesis. I want to note that the Big Bang theory has NOTHING to do with evolution or abiogenesis. Further, abiogenesis (the theory of how life arose) has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is a theory that explains how life got from a single-celled organism to the diversity we have today. Abiogenesis explains how we got that single-celled organism. Two very different theories.

So, at the very beginning, Earth was NOT a blank round canvas. Earth was actually a cooling ball of molten rock. Eventually seas were formed, likely from bombardment by ice comets and the like. Indeed, from its formation 4.5 billion years ago until 3.8 billion years ago Earth was constantly bombarded by space objects. This is why most rocks on the Earth are only 3.8 billion years old, though there are exceptions that survived the pulverizing bombardment. This is also the bombardment that cratered and pocked the Moon. Anyway, the actual process by which we have life has several competing theories. There are about nine ways it could have happened. Three years ago in a laboratory experiment scientists were able to get RNA (reproducible genetic material) to spontaneously form from primordial conditions, which makes the RNA-earth theory (the theory that the first life used RNA instead of DNA) somewhat more likely. But the important thing about that experiment was that it proved self-reproducing genetic material could spontaneously arise. If you want an explanation of exactly how this led to life, cdk007 has made a great explanatory YouTube video here. He uses visual images that explain things much better than I can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

Quote:4)I personally believe things like deja vu's are a message from God, I have actually had dreams that I have remembered and written down, and these events exactly have happened as I remember, explain that, moreover, scientists claim that deja vu's are a glitch in the brain (never proved though) but how do you explain something you have written down that has happened a finite amount of time after?

It doesn't happen. I seriously doubt you could prove that it did happen. Even if it did, there are some theories, but frankly this is tinfoil hat territory. Prove that it's even an issue, and I'll give you explanations for it. Deja Vu is understood as a piece of short-term memory that gets stuck in the long-term memory banks, creating the false illusion that you have experienced it before.

Quote:I have hundreds of questions I could ask actually but I can't be bothered, but what you will find with the above questions is you may have an idea, hypothesis, theory, or logical answer but you can't prove or disprove any of them can you? the answer is no it's as simple as that!


And don't bother posting back with questions, or link refferals, I just want your personal opinion based upon what you know.

Well, that's what I know. I know that's solid science. I know that's tested in controlled experiments. I know that's peer-reviewed, credentialed, and most likely accurate. In fact the chances of evolution being false are about equal to the chances of this entire universe being nothing but an illusion and our senses utterly lying to us. If that's the case, it doesn't matter anyway and your "god" is just as much an illusion as the rest of it. Assuming that we actually live in reality, though, evolution is true. Abiogenesis and the big bang theory are not as unassailable, but they ARE very solid, very well proven theories. Which is far more than any of the religious has ever produced.

So, you challenged me, now I challenge you. You can point out that these theories aren't 100% proven all you want, but that is meaningless unless you have a theory of your own. So I want a scientific theory of god. That would be a scientific theory. Which means first it has to be a hypothesis (making testable, falsifiable predictions,) and then those tests had to be confirmed by experimentation in a controlled setting.

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07-03-2010, 03:47 PM
Post: #3
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
(07-03-2010 03:02 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Your post is specious and has no basis. Every single one of these theories asks for 100% proof. Which simply isn't how science works. "AHA!" cries the faithful. "Then it must be wrong!" No, that's
..........
<snip>

A load of generic BS like I expected - a desperate but predictably failed attempt to answer the questions with any absoloute accuracy whether your answers are probable or not I didn't ask you a methematical equasion; ultimately they CAN NOT be proved, keep trying. And you ask for scientific evidence of God etc well I am not a scientist so I do not, and even if I was would I find evidence? maybe/maybe not but it does NOT mean it doesn't exist it simply means it hasn't been proven nothing more and call it blind faith or whatever you want but the things I have seen, done, experienced and other things are substantial evidence to me irrespective of scientists/athiests etc opinion because you can't prove my beliefs wrong.
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07-03-2010, 04:25 PM
Post: #4
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
(07-03-2010 03:47 PM)CraigFox Wrote:  A load of generic BS like I expected - a desperate but predictably failed attempt to answer the questions with any absoloute accuracy whether your answers are probable or not I didn't ask you a methematical equasion; ultimately they CAN NOT be proved, keep trying. And you ask for scientific evidence of God etc well I am not a scientist so I do not, and even if I was would I find evidence? maybe/maybe not but it does NOT mean it doesn't exist it simply means it hasn't been proven nothing more and call it blind faith or whatever you want but the things I have seen, done, experienced and other things are substantial evidence to me irrespective of scientists/athiests etc opinion because you can't prove my beliefs wrong.

Thank you for posting precisely what I predicted you would post, only with more words and less style.

You have no evidence of god. You have none at all. Absolutely no evidence of god. And your duplicitous tactics here make me doubt you have any experiences whatsoever.

You are just another hypocrite, desperately trying to trick people into giving you validation. Talk to me again when you've decided to live in reality.

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07-03-2010, 06:25 PM
Post: #5
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
(07-03-2010 04:25 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Thank you for posting precisely

<snip>

Yeah right, you've got a lot to learn despite what you may think.
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07-03-2010, 09:00 PM
Post: #6
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
(07-03-2010 06:25 PM)CraigFox Wrote:  Yeah right, you've got a lot to learn despite what you may think.

So... you're saying you can't prove 100% that your god exists? And in fact you can't provide any scientific evidence of him at all?

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07-04-2010, 02:58 PM
Post: #7
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
I'm sorry CraigFox, but you don't need to be an atheist to see that your questions are silly. I'm a theist and know that my beliefs are based on faith, not science, you need to come to the same realisation IMO.

1. You can't prove the existence of God, nor can you disprove it. What you can do is supply evidence of God's acts altering the universe, and the onus for supplying such evidence is on the theist, not the atheist.

2. There is ample evidence supporting the Big Bang Theory, from redshift to the background radiation. Yes, it's possible God started the Big Bang, but it's not in evidence.

3. You're asking about abiogenesis. The short answer is that we don't really know. But when it comes to the alternatives, scientists are more apt to think that cells generated from a primordial soup of organic chemistry than they are that all life was created as is from clay.

4. What? Just... what?

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07-04-2010, 09:50 PM
Post: #8
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
(07-04-2010 02:58 PM)KC Carter Wrote:  1. You can't prove the existence of God, nor can you disprove it. What you can do is supply evidence of God's acts altering the universe, and the onus for supplying such evidence is on the theist, not the atheist.

Just a note here, we cannot CURRENTLY disprove the existance of god IN THE ABSTRACT. Once you talk about a specific god, we often can disprove their existance completely. For instance, any god that requires a universe that is only 6,000 years old.

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07-05-2010, 08:41 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2010 08:42 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #9
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
(07-04-2010 09:50 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  
(07-04-2010 02:58 PM)KC Carter Wrote:  1. You can't prove the existence of God, nor can you disprove it. What you can do is supply evidence of God's acts altering the universe, and the onus for supplying such evidence is on the theist, not the atheist.

Just a note here, we cannot CURRENTLY disprove the existance of god IN THE ABSTRACT. Once you talk about a specific god, we often can disprove their existance completely. For instance, any god that requires a universe that is only 6,000 years old.

Are you saying that some of, or all, the gods made by men can sometimes have their existence disproved?

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07-05-2010, 08:51 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2010 08:52 AM by StarStuff.)
Post: #10
RE: I challenge YOU atheist - makes a change from you challenging religion, faith etc so c'mon!
(07-05-2010 08:41 AM)kevlar Wrote:  
(07-04-2010 09:50 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  
(07-04-2010 02:58 PM)KC Carter Wrote:  1. You can't prove the existence of God, nor can you disprove it. What you can do is supply evidence of God's acts altering the universe, and the onus for supplying such evidence is on the theist, not the atheist.

Just a note here, we cannot CURRENTLY disprove the existance of god IN THE ABSTRACT. Once you talk about a specific god, we often can disprove their existance completely. For instance, any god that requires a universe that is only 6,000 years old.

Are you saying that some of, or all, the gods made by men can sometimes have their existence disproved?

Yes, specific gods can be disproven.

For example, suppose I were to say that I believe in a god who makes the sky green. I can very simply step outside and look up, and the existence of this god is disproven.

To give a less simplistic example, suppose we had a god who created the universe 6000 years ago . If we were to discover conclusive evidence that the universe is much older than that, we have then disproven that particular mythology.

So GTseng is right; god in the abstract cannot be disproven, but specific gods with specific histories can.
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