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Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
08-06-2013, 01:07 AM
Post: #1
Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
Should teachers have the academic freedom to discuss flaws of Darwinian evolution. Unfortunatly the vast majority of students in public schools are not given all the information...they are only taught one possible way of interpreting evidence. There is a growing body of scientists who are finally starting to admit that Darwinism should be dissected.
As an example this recent article (http://www.baylorhealth.edu/Documents/BU..._Kuhn.pdf) describes three serious problems with Darwinian evolution in a paper titled "Dissecting Darwinism" for the school's medical proceedings. The paper discusses how incorrect information is still in many textbooks and many teachers don't understand they are teaching outdated and false information, such as...

1. The improbabilities of chemical origins of life, and the failure of the Miller Urey experiment.

2.The improbable beliefs involved in that IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY OF CELLULAR SYSTEMS can happen through mutation and natural selection.

3. The poor evidence of transitional forms. Students should be shown how evolutionists have attempted to prop up the theory with fraudulent fossils, interpretations and drawings such as the fake embryo drawings by Harckel that were used in textbooks for 100 years even though it was a known fraud.

Conclusion from the article...
"Th e Texas State Board of Education guidelines do not propose teaching any other alternatives to Darwinian evolution. Rather, the students of tomorrow and teachers of today should appropriately recognize that there are weaknesses that have been pointed out by reasonable scientists. In this dissection of Darwinism, we have cut into the weaknesses of the fossil evidencefor human evolution, the failure of the fossil data to demonstrate substantial transition species, and the awareness of the sudden formation of most species in a short window of time, with no significant subsequent variation...... "


NOTE... The hue and cry of many evolutionists is that creationism should not be taught in schools.
Creationists generally agree.
However, what we do argue is that teachers should have the freedom to discuss ALL the evidence. Both the strengths and weaknesses of the theory of evolution should be discussed, and should be in textbooks. (The Baylor report discusses textbooks that seem to want to present only evidence for ToE, and not the evidence against). Teachers should also have the intellectual freedom (Only if they choose) to discuss interpretations that favor an Intelligent Designer..


Are you in favor of teachers having the freedom to discuss all the evidence, and various interpretations of evidence, without fear of reprisal ...providing they teach all what is required in the curriculum?

"I challenge...to come up with one practical application of biology that would have been impossible were it not for the hypothesis of evolution" Sonenthal, New Scientist
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08-06-2013, 01:19 AM
Post: #2
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
(08-06-2013 01:07 AM)Fossilgirl Wrote:  1. The improbabilities of chemical origins of life,

Pretty sure they've shown that to happen. However, this is why it's taught as a scientific theory, not a scientific fact.

Quote:2.The improbable beliefs involved in that IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY OF CELLULAR SYSTEMS can happen through mutation and natural selection.

So basically your personal or faith-based doubts? Not a prerogative of the public school systems.

Quote:3. The poor evidence of transitional forms.

Non-issue, there is no poor evidence, and if you're falling back on "fraudulent fossils" then your argument is laughable.

Quote:"The Texas State Board of Education guidelines

/thread.

Texas. Really? Texas. The state that just declined immensely in the average IQ when they tried throwing government padlocks on vaginas and uteri? The state that is unabashedly right-wing nut-job uber-christian? Leave it to Texas to try to sneak in tenaciously clinging to thinly veiled creationist jabs.

Кровь за Кровь, Во Славу Великим!
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08-06-2013, 05:44 AM
Post: #3
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
Irreducible complexity has been shown, time and time again, to be a fallacy. Behe's works are held with the utmost contempt among the scientific community and he is seen as little more than a pariah and creationist shill.

You folks seem to exist in a bizzaro land where the ToE is some flimsy, ad hoc and faith based idea being argued by zealots over the insurmountable evidence, predictive models and scientific consensus that is ID.

Thankfully, the reality is inverse.

We are lightning, straying from the thunder; miracles of ancient wonder.
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08-06-2013, 08:22 AM
Post: #4
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
I had a response prepared, but then remembered that on the other education threads, Fossil still has not responded to the points there, thus, I feel it would be pointless to start a new conversation here, realizing that it will likely be ignored, so the same conversation can be started again somewhere else. So, I please request, that Fossil please return to all the unanswered posts about education, on the other education thread you are on.

If everyone was thinking the same thing, then no one would be thinking at all.
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08-06-2013, 09:38 AM
Post: #5
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
(08-06-2013 08:22 AM)EqualAtheist Wrote:  I feel it would be pointless to start a new conversation here
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08-06-2013, 11:00 AM
Post: #6
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
I'm saying this one more time. DARWINISM IS NOT THE SAME AS THE MODERN THEORY OF EVOLUTION. There is a world more worth of information that we base ToE on that Darwin couldn't have imagined. It largely agrees with "Darwinism" but IT IS NOT THE SAME. You want to talk about inttellectual honesty? Stop using outdated terminology to try and make your case sound better. Your terms "Darwinism" and "Evolutionism" that you so frequently use are 19th centry terms for a hypothesis from that time that do not apply to the modern scientific theory that bases itself on the new evidence that has arrisen since then.

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08-06-2013, 11:06 AM
Post: #7
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
Personally, I have never heard the word "Darwinism" used by someone who wasn't clearly setting out to discredit or devalue evolution as a theory.
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08-06-2013, 04:09 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2013 04:10 PM by Fossilgirl.)
Post: #8
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
Satyros Wrote:
Fossilgirl Wrote:1. The improbabilities of chemical origins of life,
Pretty sure they've shown that to happen. However, this is why it's taught as a scientific theory, not a scientific fact.
You are pretty sure they've shown it to happen?
You see... Thats what the Baylor report is all about. People have been taught so many false things. No... Chemical life has not been shown to happen... and its not even close to happening.

From the article
"Unfortunately, the student is not taught that those theories (chemical origin of life)
still require complex and specified information contained
in functioning proteins, which cannot be explained or selfgenerated
. Furthermore, the student is not taught that
the four nucleotides do not spontaneously form in nature.
There is no self-organizing principle that would guide or facilitate
alignment of nucleotides"
http://www.baylorhealth.edu/Documents/BU...1_Kuhn.pdf

Satyros Wrote:
Fossilgirl Wrote:2.The improbable beliefs involved in that IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY OF CELLULAR SYSTEMS can happen through mutation and natural selection.
So basically your personal or faith-based doubts? Not a prerogative of the public school systems.
No... Not teaching faith, but teaching science and not being afraid to present all the evidence.

what the article says...
"The concept of irreducible complexity suggests that all elements
of a system must be present simultaneously rather than
evolve through a stepwise, sequential improvement, as theorized
by Darwinian evolution . Within each individual cell, there
are tens of thousands of additional interrelated complex actions,
enzymatic steps, and processes that automatically maintain
cellular homeostasis, protein transport, self-protection, and
replication. Th e fact that these irreducibly complex systems are
specifically coded through DNA adds another layer of complexity
called “specified complexity”

Satyros Wrote:
Fossilgirl Wrote:3. The poor evidence of transitional forms.
Non-issue, there is no poor evidence, and if you're falling back on "fraudulent fossils" then your argument is laughable.

I agree that there is no poor evidence from the fossil record... neither is there any good evidence.

You see Satyros... You are the classic example of someone who has been taught and believes the that the fossil record supports Darwinian evolution. But you don't have any understanding of the other side of the coin.

The Baylor report provides several examples of how fossils do not support Darwinian evolution. I will provide my own example...

Evolutionists once taught that a fossil they found represented the transitional form that crawled up from shallow seas to land. This fish had little legs and had gone extinct 70 million years ago,

But... Was this story based on facts? or on evolutionary stories?

About 65 years ago it was realized these fish had NOT gone extinct 70 million years ago. They still live today! Smile

These fish did not have little legs but instead it was fins that help them swim and navigate,

These fish (coelacanths) did not swim in shallow seas, but they swim at great depths.

Students should be presented with ALL the evidence...Teachers and students should have the intellectual freedom to discuss different interpretations of the evidence.
(08-06-2013 11:06 AM)Painkiller Wrote:  Personally, I have never heard the word "Darwinism" used by someone who wasn't clearly setting out to discredit or devalue evolution as a theory.
You need to read a few science books and check out authors such as Richard Dawkins.
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/9...ood-of-god

"I challenge...to come up with one practical application of biology that would have been impossible were it not for the hypothesis of evolution" Sonenthal, New Scientist
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08-06-2013, 04:14 PM
Post: #9
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
(08-06-2013 04:09 PM)Fossilgirl Wrote:  You need to read a few science books and check out authors such as Richard Dawkins.
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/9...ood-of-god

Some top-notch patronising there, Fossil, only let down by the fact that Dawkins doesn't actually use the word "Darwinism" once in that essay. Would you like to try again?
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08-06-2013, 04:46 PM
Post: #10
RE: Intellectual freedom, and honesty.
(08-06-2013 04:09 PM)Fossilgirl Wrote:  You see Satyros... You are the classic example of someone who has been taught and believes the that the fossil record supports Darwinian evolution. But you don't have any understanding of the other side of the coin.

If I'm not mistaken, Sat was religiously educated. Is that correct, Sat?
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