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Is the basis of Christianity moral?
02-06-2010, 12:33 AM
Post: #1
Is the basis of Christianity moral?
Based on a post in the General Forum, but better suited here for more discussion.

The basis of most (not all) Christian sects is this.

Jesus is perfect, or is God, or both. Jesus is without sin.

Jesus is then tortured, killed, and brutalized -- all for everyone else's sin that was ever born.

Jesus then comes back to life.

Anyone who accepts this, and follows Jesus either gets into paradise, or is eternally in the presence of God.

Those that don't are either eternally separated for God, or go to Hell for eternity.

How is this a moral base for a religion? A moral standard?

A perfect being undergoes torture and death without even so much as consent from the one whose sin they're bearing. If the sinner accepts this, they go before God washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb, everything done forgiven.

It's as if someone were to say "you did a crime worthy of the death penalty, but your mother/sister/father/brother/husband/wife/choose relation here loves you, so whether you like it or not, they're taking the punishment for you.

Rejoice and be happy! Your punishment is taken by someone completely innocent of your crimes, isn't that great?

How is that a good moral base? It's based on a lack of accountability.

Pawol anpil pa leve le mo
Lavi m nan men Bondye o sen
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02-06-2010, 07:17 AM
Post: #2
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
(02-06-2010 12:33 AM)Clementine Wrote:  It's as if someone were to say "you did a crime worthy of the death penalty, but your mother/sister/father/brother/husband/wife/choose relation here loves you, so whether you like it or not, they're taking the punishment for you.

Rejoice and be happy! Your punishment is taken by someone completely innocent of your crimes, isn't that great?

How is that a good moral base? It's based on a lack of accountability.

Well said. In a different thread I wrote and reproducing here.

I have adopted Stereophonic as my son. Additionally, I have taken on this forum completely as I am All Powerful. I am a Benevolent Martial Law Administrator here.

Now I am going to be Fair and Reasonable and Just. For all the bad deeds done by anyone, on this forum, from impoliteness, to inadequate moderation to flat out lies, I am going to punish Stereophonic so that I can forgive every one else. That is the only way I can do it, because I am very Loving and Just! I will leave it to a referendum as to what punishment I should deliver to Stereophonic and being a good son that he is, he will take it willingly!

I do not want you to pray against the punishment, in any form. This time around the son should go through whatever punishment the forum recommends completely willingly. Do not even ask your friends and family, especially Peter to pray against the punishment. Let the democrary rule in the Forum. But remember, I love you and I am the Most Loving and the Most Just and All Powerful. But, I have to what I have to!

On a serious note, Christianity has been a journey from fact to fiction, GT a new plot for a novel for you. A short book covers all aspects of this fiction making:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/chr...index.html

Clementine if you push hard enough like a good lawyer, the only person who may be able to defend Christianity in its true colors would be me. The more ususal suspects will not have anything to say!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-06-2010, 07:20 AM
Post: #3
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
Amadi wrote:
"good lawyer"
oxymoron see Roger
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02-06-2010, 07:31 AM
Post: #4
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
Minus459

Care to speak on the topic in the thread here!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-06-2010, 07:36 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2010 07:36 AM by minus459.)
Post: #5
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
just having fun..........it was a joke
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02-06-2010, 09:10 AM
Post: #6
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
(02-06-2010 12:33 AM)Clementine Wrote:  ...How is that a good moral base? It's based on a lack of accountability.

Of course you must realize that the Christian faith is very different from what you are attempting to describe.

You have put forward a parody of Christian teaching. Why?

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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02-06-2010, 09:16 AM
Post: #7
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
(02-06-2010 09:10 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(02-06-2010 12:33 AM)Clementine Wrote:  ...How is that a good moral base? It's based on a lack of accountability.

Of course you must realize that the Christian faith is very different from what you are attempting to describe.

You have put forward a parody of Christian teaching. Why?

The morals given in Bible of incest, homosexuality, killing of children, women. If some1 not believing in Jesus should be killed, are these good morals or bad?
If you say that these morals are not of christian teachings, does this means that Bible is not for Christians?
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02-06-2010, 09:18 AM
Post: #8
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
(02-06-2010 09:10 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(02-06-2010 12:33 AM)Clementine Wrote:  ...How is that a good moral base? It's based on a lack of accountability.

Of course you must realize that the Christian faith is very different from what you are attempting to describe.

You have put forward a parody of Christian teaching. Why?

Usual distortion and speaking from the both sides of the mouth by Stereophonic. Clementine you are on the right track. Stay the course!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-06-2010, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2010 12:27 PM by Clementine.)
Post: #9
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
(02-06-2010 09:10 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(02-06-2010 12:33 AM)Clementine Wrote:  ...How is that a good moral base? It's based on a lack of accountability.

Of course you must realize that the Christian faith is very different from what you are attempting to describe.

You have put forward a parody of Christian teaching. Why?

Stereophonic, why don't you put forward what you think the Christian faith says with regard to heaven, hell, and the death of Jesus then, rather than just criticizing mine? That way I can address yours with an open mind.

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02-06-2010, 12:36 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2010 12:37 PM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #10
RE: Is the basis of Christianity moral?
Before Stereophonic answers Clementine's question, let me do a little ground work for him. Here I quote Wikipedia. A good study of history should reveal to any insightful researcher that the position of orthodox Christianity about atonement was no different from that of Islam. It was the politcal success of Augustine that introduced the dogma of Original sin in Christianity:

Pelagius (ca. AD 354 – ca. AD 420/440) was an ascetic who denied the doctrine of original sin as developed by Augustine of Hippo, and was declared a heretic by the Council of Carthage. His interpretation of a doctrine of free will became known as Pelagianism. He was well educated, fluent in both Greek and Latin, and learned in theology. He spent time as an ascetic, focusing on practical asceticism, which his teachings clearly reflect. He was certainly well known in Rome, both for the harsh asceticism of his public life as well as the power and persuasiveness of his speech. His reputation in Rome earned him praise early in his career even from such pillars of the Church as Augustine, who referred to him as a "saintly man." However, he was later accused of lying about his own teachings in order to avoid public condemnation. Most of his later life was spent defending himself against other theologians and the Catholic Church. Due to his status as a heretic little of his work has come down to the present day except in the quotes of his opponents.

An objective view of Pelagius and his effect is difficult. His name has been maligned and used as an epithet for centuries by both Protestants and Catholics, and he has had few defenders. The Roman Catholic church denounced his ideas and yet the Reformation accused Catholics of adhering to his beliefs and condemned both Pelagius and the Catholic Church. Meanwhile, the Eastern Orthodox Church is silent. Regardless, Pelagius stands, both in reality and in icon, as a radical dissenter from the traditional view of original sin and the means of salvation. Analysis of his work is limited by the fact that Pelagius' life and teachings can only be understood through the works of his opposition as only their writings survive.

Pelagius' guilt in the eyes of the Church, however, was undecided. Pelagius wrote a letter and statement of belief showing himself to be orthodox and sent them to Innocent I. In these he articulated his beliefs so as not to contradict what the synods condemned. Zosimus had become Pope by the time the letter reached Rome in 417. Zosimus was duly impressed and declared him innocent.

St. Augustine, shocked that Pelagius and Celestius were not denounced as heretics, called the Council of Carthage in 418 and stated nine beliefs of the Church that Pelagianism denied:

1. Death came from sin, not man's physical nature.
2. Infants must be baptized to be cleansed from original sin.
3. Justifying grace covers past sins and helps avoid future sins.
4. The grace of Christ imparts strength and will to act out God's commandments.
5. No good works can come without God's grace.
6. We confess we are sinners because it is true, not from humility.
7. The saints ask for forgiveness for their own sins.
8. The saints also confess to be sinners because they are.
9. Children dying without baptism are excluded from both the Kingdom of heaven and eternal life.

Every one of these was accepted as a universal belief of the Church and all Pelagians were banished from Italy.
Pelagius who aught to have been declared a saint rather than a heretic, defended the true Christianity against the dogma of Original Sin, that found its advocate in Augustine. According to Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Pelagius was a monk and theologian whose heterodox theological system known as Pelagianism emphasized the primacy of human effort in spiritual salvation.

Coming to Rome c. 380, Pelagius, though not a priest, became a highly regarded spiritual director for both clergy and laymen. The rigorous asceticism of his adherents acted as a reproach to the spiritual sloth of many Roman Christians, whose moral standards greatly distressed him. He blamed Rome’s moral laxity on the doctrine of divine grace that he heard a bishop cite from the Confessions of Saint Augustine, who in his prayer for continence beseeched God to grant whatever grace the divine will determined. Pelagius attacked this teaching on the grounds that it imperilled the entire moral law and soon gained a considerable following at Rome. Henceforth his closest collaborator was a lawyer named Celestius.

After the fall of Rome to the Visigoth chieftain Alaric in 410, Pelagius and Celestius went to Africa. There they encountered the hostile criticism of Augustine, who published several denunciatory letters concerning their doctrine, particularly Pelagius’ insistence on man’s basically good moral nature and on man’s own responsibility for voluntarily choosing Christian asceticism for his spiritual advancement.

Pelagius left for Palestine c. 412. There, although accused of heresy at the synod of Jerusalem in 415, he succeeded in clearing himself and avoiding censure. In response to further attacks from Augustine and the Latin biblical scholar Jerome, Pelagius wrote De libero arbitrio (“On Free Will”) in 416, which resulted in the condemnation of his teaching by two African councils. In 417 Pope Innocent I endorsed the condemnations and excommunicated Pelagius and Celestius. Innocent’s successor, Zosimus, at first pronounced him innocent on the basis of Pelagius’ Libellus fidei ('Brief Statement of Faith'), but after renewed investigation at the council of Carthage in 418, Zosimus confirmed the council’s nine canons condemning Pelagius. Nothing more is known of Pelagius after this date.'

"Pelagius." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2010. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 06 Feb. 2010 <http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/449072/Pelagius>.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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