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Islam is anti women
01-17-2010, 08:52 AM (This post was last modified: 01-17-2010 09:28 PM by Parousia.)
Post: #1
Islam is anti women
Deleted material in this post was a copy/paste from another site, with no commentary and no credit. This is spamming.
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01-17-2010, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 01-17-2010 11:15 AM by Aijan7d.)
Post: #2
RE: Islam is anti women
Well it is one of the resons why a lot of people have left Islam. Some Muslims will say ''but not all women are treated like that'' when I believe that they know that's not the point of the discussion.

In the Hadith Bukhari 6:301 "Muhammad said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Qur'an 4:34 permits a man to hit his wife, only if she doesn't do as he asks. It must cease if the woman complies with her husband's demands. Beating is also intended to be the last resort, behind verbal abuse and abandonment. Reardless many see beating a wife as unacceptable.

In Bukhari 2:28 women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. The many opportunities denied women under Islamic law, from giving equal testimony in court to having the right to exclude other wives from their marital bed, is very clear proof that women are of lesser value then men in Islam.

I believe that there must be one person head of the household, one to report to, which is the husband. It does not mean he should be aggressive toward his wife or beat her as some parts of the Qu'ran allow.

Although males and females are equal in relationship to Christ, the Bible gives specific roles to each in marriage. The husband is to assume leadership in the home 1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23. This leadership should not be dictatorial, condescending, or patronizing to the wife, but should be in accordance with the example of Christ leading the church. “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word” Ephesians 5:25-26.

You said ''Mohammed had an 8 year old wife (peadophila). Disgusting''. Actually Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine.

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01-17-2010, 02:15 PM (This post was last modified: 01-17-2010 02:15 PM by GTseng3.)
Post: #3
RE: Islam is anti women
I completely agree with you, the Quran is highly oppressive and cruel to women.

But stands against everything Christianity stands for when it comes to religion? Are you serious? Have you read the Bible? Allow me to enlighten you. My emphasis added.

Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Genesis 25:21 "And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived." (This is here just as an example. In the Bible, lack of childbirth is always the woman's fault. The women are always barren. The men are never impotent.)

Exodus 20:17 "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his [censored], nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." Because wives, like houses servants oxes and asses, are property, not people. This theme will be repeated often.

Exodus 21:7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." I'm just wondering how may Christians will defend this because daughters sold into slavery are to be treated better than foreigners taken as slaves.

Leviticus 12:2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." 12:5 "But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." Because women are way more unclean than men. This theme is often repeated elsewhere.

Leviticus 27:3-7 "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary. And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels." Here he just comes right out and says it. Women are 50-60% less valuable than men. This is one of the most screwed up misogynistic verses in the bible.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the [censored] in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." Let's set the stage here. So I've just married. And I don't care for my wife. I can accuse her of not being a virgin, and if her father cannot produce the bloody sheets from our first night together, proving that she was a virgin, she dies. How would the father get the bloody sheets from my house? So women, not only should you be virgins, but you should be really, really good at sex or I'll say you weren't a virgin and marry someone who is good at sex. It's just disgusting.
Deuteronomy 22:28 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." Because if I'm raped, the first thing I want to do is be forced to marry my rapist. That's just sick.

I'm not going to quote all the bits about David, "The man whom God loved," but suffice to say he went around killing husbands and claiming their wives as property (Bathsheba was the only one he did wrong, since he set her husband up for murder. The others he killed their husbands for, I don't know, legitimate reasons I guess. Anyway, the point is women are property.)

The rest of the Old Testament continues in this vein. Women are property, are the source of all things evil, and just read the Proverbs to figure out how absolutely horrible women are. I'll be here all day if I quote everything.

So lets go to Paul! Paul, in many ways the most important voice in the modern church. Because Paul tells the church what all those crazy things Jesus said actually mean. Paul was also an incredible misogynist and a huge advocate for celibacy.

1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." Not only are women useless without men, women can't even be led by Christ without men.

I Corinthians 11:5-9 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." Here it is, he comes right out and says it. Women are good for nothing but servants and property to men. And they should have their head covered when they pray (You know, like Muslims make their women cover themselves.)

1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Stupid women should be taught by their husbands at home. They're not good enough to learn god's lessons in church.

Ephesians 5:22 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." This is a big one. Not only are women to submit to their husbands, but they are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ! Ladies, your husband is a god unto you. Let not the edicts of god be contradicted. (If you think about it, this basically means a woman is infinitely worthless, since she is as far below man as man is below god, and god is infinitely greater than any man...)
Ephesians 5:33 "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband." Men can love their wives, but wives should revere their husbands. A bit of a divide there, huh?

Colossians 3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Timothy 2:9 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;" You know, like those modestly dressed Muslim women.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." That's right, you heard it from Paul himself. Man listening to woman is the cause of all the world's problems. If only Eve had been respectful, like a Muslim woman!

2 Timothy 3:6 "For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." That's right, women who try to learn things are silly, and will be led astray. Oh Paul, does your misogyny know no bounds?

Titus 2:4 "That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." So, women that are not quiet, obedient homemakers blaspheme the word of god. That pretty much says it directly right there.

But don't think Paul's the only one. Oh no. The disciples of Christ had enough misogyny to go around.

1 Peter 3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." Well, at least Peter, unlike Paul, acknowledges that women may occasionally know better than men. But not generally no. Only very occasionally. And they should never just come right out and say that. Instead they should be submissive, quiet, and try to manipulate men, like Sarah manipulated Abraham. You know, when she convinced him to sleep with Hagar, and all that? Ah, but then I guess she was just the weaker vessel.

So you can go back and forth about which religion is worse to women, Christianity or Islam. But one thing is clear: Both are very, very bad.

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01-18-2010, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2010 10:16 AM by Daewway.)
Post: #4
RE: Islam is anti women
"1 Peter 3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;" That is much better that the Korans 4:34 teachings. Subjection does not mean accept a beating, the same way being humble does not mean to live in poverty.

Although males and females are equal in relationship to Christ, the Scriptures give specific roles to each in marriage. The husband is to assume leadership in the home (1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23). This leadership should not be dictatorial, condescending, or patronizing to the wife, but should be in accordance with the example of Christ leading the church.

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01-18-2010, 02:33 PM
Post: #5
RE: Islam is anti women
(01-18-2010 10:13 AM)Daewway Wrote:  "1 Peter 3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands;" That is much better that the Korans 4:34 teachings. Subjection does not mean accept a beating, the same way being humble does not mean to live in poverty.

Although males and females are equal in relationship to Christ, the Scriptures give specific roles to each in marriage. The husband is to assume leadership in the home (1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23). This leadership should not be dictatorial, condescending, or patronizing to the wife, but should be in accordance with the example of Christ leading the church.

I didnt understand what you mean here that.
(01-18-2010 10:13 AM)Daewway Wrote:  but should be in accordance with the example of Christ leading the church.
what it has to do with wife or marriage ot leading church?
Did Jesus preach in any church? was he married that we can get example of wife or married life?
Can you explain please
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01-18-2010, 03:01 PM
Post: #6
RE: Islam is anti women
The Holy Quran describing moral and spiritual equality of the two genders:

"Surely, men who submit themselves to God and women who submit themselves to Him, and believing men and believing women, and obedient men and obedient women and truthful men and truthful women, and men steadfast in their faith and steadfast women, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, and men who remember Allah much and women who remember Him — Allah has prepared for all of them forgiveness and a great reward." (Al Quran 33:36)

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01-18-2010, 03:08 PM
Post: #7
RE: Islam is anti women
(01-17-2010 02:15 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  I completely agree with you, the Quran is highly oppressive and cruel to women.


So you can go back and forth about which religion is worse to women, Christianity or Islam. But one thing is clear: Both are very, very bad.

You mention about cruelty of women in Bible. and you claim same about Quran as well, may I know which verse of Quran opress Women and say about violance towards women?

Please if you give verse, give with complete context.
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01-18-2010, 03:47 PM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2010 03:48 PM by GTseng3.)
Post: #8
RE: Islam is anti women
2:282 "O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one erreth (though forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be no averse to writing down (the contract) whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell to one another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things." In the middle of a fantastic verse on requiring multiple witnesses, the point is made that women are only half as trustworthy as men.

4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great." Note that not only does Allah make men inherently better than women, but if you even fear rebellion (whether or not rebellion actually occurs,) then you should punish them physically. So, wife-beating! Yay!

4:98 "Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way." This one is interesting. It's in the middle of a series of verses about who will go to hell. The Quran says that those not responsible for themselves will not go to hell. Feebleminded men and children are exempt from Allah's judgment. So are women, who apparently are too stupid to intentionally do anything. Stupid women.

4:176 "They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things." It's great when holy scripture just lays out the comparative worth of women and men like this. The Bible did it in Leviticus, the Quran does it here. This sentiment is repeated constantly throughout the Quran.

23:1-6 "Successful indeed are the believers Who are humble in their prayers, And who shun vain conversation, And who are payers of the poor-due; And who guard their modesty Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy," Because women aren't really people, like slaves, so there's no reason to be modest around them.
24:6 "As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;" Granted, this verse isn't as bad as the biblical equivalent, but it's still pretty bad. Normally it takes four witnesses to accuse a woman of adultery, but if you accuse your own wife... you only need one. A direct violation of previously established legal law (because hey, it's not like women are people.)

24:31 "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed." This verse justifies the hijab, one of the most apparent signs of female degradation. Unlike most of these verses, this verse is actually significantly more oppressive to women than its biblical counterpart.

33:59 "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful." More verses requiring oppressive female covering.

37:20-23 "And say: Ah, woe for us! This is the Day of Judgment. This is the Day of Separation, which ye used to deny. (And it is said unto the angels): Assemble those who did wrong, together with their wives and what they used to worship Instead of Allah, and lead them to the path to hell;" Remember that verse that said women were too stupid to deserve hell? Well women also aren't people, but property. So if their husband goes to hell, they go with him, whether they deserve it or not.

65:4 "And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him." This is in the middle with rules on Islamic divorce law, which I won't get into. But what I find most interesting is that it gives legal recourse for dismissing wives who have not yet reached puberty. I'm going to say that again. Wives who have not yet reached puberty. The Quran condones pedophilia.

66:5 "It may happen that his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you, submissive (to Allah), believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, widows and maids." This is technically talking about the wives of Muhammed, but still he serves as an example to Muslims. If women get divorced, then they are at fault, and Allah will replace them with better women. How empowering. So it doesn't matter how bad your husband is, you should stay in the marriage. Even if he "scourges" you as the Quran encourages above.

And this hasn't even gone into the ramifications of the fact that multiple wives are encouraged, and it's not a sin to sleep with your slave girls (the Quran, like the Bible, openly condones slavery). In general the Quran is kinder to women than the Bible, but there are a few specific verses that are far worse than anything in the Bible (the ones allowing for beating your wife, and for pedophilia.)

But no matter which one is better or worse, they're both pretty bad and immoral.

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01-18-2010, 06:20 PM
Post: #9
RE: Islam is anti women
Islam gave right of inheritance to women in the 7th century. Europe and USA did not do that until the 19th and 20th century. The ratio of one to two is because, men were given the responsibility of maintaining the household. So, in a manner of speaking, inheritance for women was pocket money, while their husbands were charged with the full responsibility of maintaining them.

Polygammy is not encouraged, only allowed to accomodate for certain circumstances, like when there are wars there are surplus women. For example the Holy Quran says, "and if you fear you will not deal justly, then marry only one." (Al Quran 4:4)

Right to vote was given to women in USA rather recently, Islam gave full right to testimony. The testimony of a woman is equal to that of man, the other woman is only to support her. Here the Holy Quran is being kind to women, accomodating their emotional needs, showing chivalry, if you will, not discriminating against women.

You have raised a lot of issues in this posting. I will have to answer these issues piece meal after attending to more pressing issues in other threads. I am providing some links here. Here is a 39 page booklet by Sir Zafrullah Khan on Woman in Islam:

http://www.alislam.org/library/WOMANINISLAM.pdf

Muhammad the Liberator of Women:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Muh...women.html

Muhammad: The Restorer of Family Values:
http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/...0131MN.pdf

Women: Bearer of Original Sin or Paradise?
http://www.muslimsunrise.com/dmddocument...df#page=25

The following link has several articles on Women and Islam:
http://www.alislam.org/library/women.html

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01-19-2010, 12:00 AM
Post: #10
RE: Islam is anti women
I am sorry, but every international organization I am aware of speaks very harshly about the treatment of women in Islamic countries today. I will note that women were treated just as bad in Christendom before, say, the 19th century or so (and women are only now achieving full equality,) but that is not a justification.

The Quran itself, which is what we are comparing (the Bible vs. the Quran,) is very harsh on women, very oppressive to women, and gives great license for the abuse and oppression of women. It cannot be justified.

I cannot see how any moral person can accept either the Bible or the Quran as a divinely inspired document. They are products of their time, reflecting the morals of their time. Those morals, we now understand in our more enlightened age, are backwards and depraved. They were barbarous times, to be learned from and never repeated, and certainly not to be glorified by calling them holy scripture.

The Bible, and the Quran, make perfect sense if you read it (or each book in the Bible's case) as a product of the time when it was written, written by men and only men, reflecting their society, their situation, and their views. If you treat it as you would treat any other literary work, critically, then it makes perfect sense. The immorality, the violence, the oppression preached in both suddenly has context, and you realize that both works are remarkably progressive for their times. But when you compare it to our times, and our own understanding of human morality? What disgusting actions they condone! What depraved attitudes they present!

If you insist that the Quran or the Bible is divinely inspired, then they can be nothing but evil. If you accept them as books written by men, however, they are a significant progressive step, a step forward from the utter barbarity of their day to the more refined barbarity of their future. That refined barbarity continued climbing, higher and higher, until you reach the relatively enlightened morality of the present day (this is a constant trend throughout history, and the hopeful part of me believes we will continue to become more moral and civilized as a society as time goes on.)

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