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Issues I have with Jesus
08-02-2010, 04:08 PM
Post: #1
Issues I have with Jesus
I think if I met Jesus back when he was alive, I would have had a difficult time communicating with him. I think he had good intentions, and he really was convinced that he and everyone else would survive their own death, and continue to live in either heaven or hell. And that was what he was all about, prepping for the afterlife.

Speaking only for myself, I have never believed that anyone survives their own death in any manner, other than the legacy they leave behind. There is no creditable scientific evidence that anyone survives their own death. There is a ton of data supporting the conclusion that your physical death permanently ends all living parts of you, including your brain, which would necessarily include your personality and character. I can live with this obvious conclusion. Life actually has more meaning. This life is a great planet ride, and I intend to enjoy it to the fullest.

Back to Jesus, Matt. 5:39. "Resist not evil" I'm sorry, that's just wrong. Lame and wrong. Bad moral instruction. If there is any lesson in history it is that those who do not resist evil end up being subjugated, oppressed, suppressed, etc. by the evil people seeking more power. That battle continues today in every corner of the world. The Chinese did not resist the evils of the mass killer Mao, and today they live in a huge oppressive culture.

Jesus was clearly a pacifist, and while that may work for you because you live in some small protected corner of a culture, it doesn't work for me. I will always side with the people fighting against evil and for personal liberty, a battle that I see lasting for many more centuries. The USA was a great start but even it is under the threat of oppression by a huge overwhelming government plan.

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08-02-2010, 04:32 PM
Post: #2
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-02-2010 04:08 PM)rm10 Wrote:  ...Back to Jesus, Matt. 5:39. "Resist not evil" I'm sorry, that's just wrong...

How well do you think you understand Jesus' instructions here? Do you think he was saying that we should never stand up to defend the weak and the needy?

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08-02-2010, 05:05 PM
Post: #3
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
Hang on, that's total misquoting. The full thing is 'But I say unto you, That ye not resist evil: but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.'

It's not saying to wimp out of the scenario, it's saying to rise above it. If someone's hostile and tries to start a fight, then man up, show you're the bigger person with more brains, and don't respond. Show them you're the better person.

Jesus, if he existed, was no [censored]; look at the temple scenario. It's saying show that they can't wind you up because you have dignity and honour, and won't just resort to being herd mentality fighters over ego.

C'mon guys, I'm an atheist and I can see that. The next few lines are Jesus saying worldly things aren't important, there's more to life.
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08-02-2010, 08:20 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2010 08:51 PM by rm10.)
Post: #4
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-02-2010 04:32 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(08-02-2010 04:08 PM)rm10 Wrote:  ...Back to Jesus, Matt. 5:39. "Resist not evil" I'm sorry, that's just wrong...

How well do you think you understand Jesus' instructions here? Do you think he was saying that we should never stand up to defend the weak and the needy?

Show me where in the Bible Jesus instructs to stand up and fight evil people.
(08-02-2010 05:05 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  Hang on, that's total misquoting. The full thing is 'But I say unto you, That ye not resist evil: but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.'

It's not saying to wimp out of the scenario, it's saying to rise above it. If someone's hostile and tries to start a fight, then man up, show you're the bigger person with more brains, and don't respond. Show them you're the better person.

Jesus, if he existed, was no [censored]; look at the temple scenario. It's saying show that they can't wind you up because you have dignity and honour, and won't just resort to being herd mentality fighters over ego.

C'mon guys, I'm an atheist and I can see that. The next few lines are Jesus saying worldly things aren't important, there's more to life.

You being an atheist apparently doesn't make you objective. No, it's not a misquote, it's exactly what he said. The last part of the verse just reinforces that you should not resist evil. The next few verses are examples of how to not resist evil. If someone sues you for your cloak also give him your coat. This is the sort of attitude that oppressors like in their followers.

In the temple example, Jesus got angry at what he thought was a mockery of a place of worship. So he got angry. Does that make him a great moralist? Did he turn the other check? No. So did he have a consistent message? No. Is it my duty to defend Jesus first for weak instruction and then again when he is inconsistent? I think that exhibits two shortfalls of Jesus, weak instruction and inconsistency.

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08-02-2010, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2010 09:06 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #5
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-02-2010 08:20 PM)rm10 Wrote:  ...Show me where in the Bible Jesus instructs to stand up and fight evil people...

Luke 4:16-21 demonstrates Jesus' concern for social justice--the end of oppressors, the end of unjust captivity. This verse has been used by liberation theologians to justify revolutions and political struggles against injustice all over the world.


(08-02-2010 08:20 PM)rm10 Wrote:  ...I think that exhibits two shortfalls of Jesus, weak instruction and inconsistency.

Either that or it exhibits the weakness of your interpretive skills and the poverty of your imagination.

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08-02-2010, 11:01 PM
Post: #6
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-02-2010 08:57 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(08-02-2010 08:20 PM)rm10 Wrote:  ...Show me where in the Bible Jesus instructs to stand up and fight evil people...

Luke 4:16-21 demonstrates Jesus' concern for social justice--the end of oppressors, the end of unjust captivity. This verse has been used by liberation theologians to justify revolutions and political struggles against injustice all over the world.


(08-02-2010 08:20 PM)rm10 Wrote:  ...I think that exhibits two shortfalls of Jesus, weak instruction and inconsistency.

Either that or it exhibits the weakness of your interpretive skills and the poverty of your imagination.

Maybe you should have read the whole chapter, shortly after that great speech Jesus got thrown out of the town for saying that only a Syrian woman was cleansed of leprosy in Israel. Whoops! He should have shut up while they were still impressed!

Maybe that reflects another Jesus weakness, not knowing when to shut up!

By the way, "liberating the oppressed" in the American Standard Bible was stated as "giving liberty to them that are bruised" in the King James version, not near as impressive....

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08-03-2010, 11:21 AM
Post: #7
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-02-2010 04:08 PM)rm10 Wrote:  Speaking only for myself, I have never believed that anyone survives their own death in any manner,




well you are right inline with what the bible teaches because the bible does not teach the manmade doctrine of
THE IMMORTALITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL


and neither did JESUS




this is what the bible teaches in ECCLESIASTIS 9;5

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.


but make no mistake about it, many many people have been misled by false religious leaders and they have taken
THE IMMORTALITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL on board ,even though it is not a bible teaching
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08-03-2010, 12:42 PM
Post: #8
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-03-2010 11:21 AM)may Wrote:  well you are right inline with what the bible teaches because the bible does not teach the manmade doctrine of
THE IMMORTALITY OF THE HUMAN SOUL and neither did JESUS

Are you saying that Jesus didn't preach about an afterlife? And that the Bible doesn't describe life after death in heaven and hell? I just want to clarify what you are saying.

I'm aware that parts of Ecclesiastes are out of sync with the rest of the Bible.

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08-03-2010, 06:02 PM
Post: #9
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-02-2010 04:08 PM)rm10 Wrote:  Jesus was clearly a pacifist, and while that may work for you because you live in some small protected corner of a culture, it doesn't work for me. I will always side with the people fighting against evil and for personal liberty, a battle that I see lasting for many more centuries. The USA was a great start but even it is under the threat of oppression by a huge overwhelming government plan.

You can fight against evil with out violence. I dont think Jesus would of said to let evil thrive, but to battle it with words and good intentions and not sink to the level of evil and become evil yourself. I also think personal liberty is important, but I dont think I have the personal liberty to take anyone else's right away. A person in Iraq should have the same rights I do. And I would never want to hurt and innocent person for the good of myself or others. Hurting even one person is evil. I am not saying that violence is NEVER needed, but I think it should be a last resort, and we dont always try to use our words first.
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08-03-2010, 08:34 PM
Post: #10
RE: Issues I have with Jesus
(08-03-2010 06:02 PM)CarolineBelle Wrote:  You can fight against evil with out violence. I dont think Jesus would of said to let evil thrive, but to battle it with words and good intentions and not sink to the level of evil and become evil yourself. I also think personal liberty is important, but I dont think I have the personal liberty to take anyone else's right away. A person in Iraq should have the same rights I do. And I would never want to hurt and innocent person for the good of myself or others. Hurting even one person is evil. I am not saying that violence is NEVER needed, but I think it should be a last resort, and we dont always try to use our words first.

Here's the difference between you and me. I recognize that oppression is natural, and personal liberty has to be fought for. Sometimes with violence, like the USA revolution. Pacifism has never led to personal liberty, but has often led to oppression.

There are large cultures that basically teach their children how to be evil. Evil is all around us, 2000 years after Jesus. I have no use for his "turn the other cheek" instruction, it will not stop evil.

The people in Iraq are much better off now since we liberated them from the oppressive dictator Saddam Hussein, by force, something Jesus would never have condoned, since it amounted to resisting evil on a massive scale. But the people of Iraq are never going to have the same personal liberty as that found in the USA because half of them are female, and Iraq is a Muslim country. I don't see that changing hence I have no use for travel to Iraq. I will write it off for my lifetime. We gave them a shot at personal liberty but they are religiously constrained.

Hurting one person is evil? Not if his intention is to hurt you. It's too bad the Commandments don't spell out that exception to not killing. Another weak instruction set from the Bible. If a person is a professional killer for instance he needs to be killed. Just taken out. It's the moral thing to do. Your compassion is misplaced if you say killing anyone is evil. You don't understand the rights of victims, especially future victims. There are morally defective people running around who are dangerous.

I'm for one strike and you're out when it comes to murder, armed robbery, terror attacks, rape, or child molestation. People who do these things are human excrement and need to be eliminated. Getting these people off the streets makes it safer for women and children. We used to do that better in the 40's and 50's and women and kids were safer. Plea bargaining was never heard of. Too many lawyers today, trying to make money and reputation by getting bad people back on the streets.

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