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Jesus did not die on the cross
01-20-2010, 06:32 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 07:35 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #1
Jesus did not die on the cross
Jesus did not die on the cross. He was put on the cross, but survived. He was in coma when taken off the cross and was later able to escape as is evidenced from the empty tomb. My Christian brethren and sisters need to find a new religion. May I suggest Islam, as Ahmadiyya Muslim Community understands it.

Watch a BBC Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir

This thirty minute documentary by BBC, examines what happened to Jesus Christ after he was put on the cross, based on Bible, historical and medical evidence:

Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8

Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T340DUSq9SY

Part III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cy8M...rom=PL&index=2

The evidence presented indeed establishes the Quranic claim, “Allah made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them refuge on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water.” (Al Quran 23:51)


Jesus in India is an English version of Masih Hindustan mein, an Urdu treatise written by the Holy Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835 – 1908). The Urdu treatise was published in 1899.

The main thesis expounded in the treatise is Jesus’ escape from an ignominious death on the Cross and his subsequent journey to India in quest of the lost tribes of Israel whom he had to gather into his fold as mentioned in the New Testament.

Abundant evidence has been furnished from Christian as well as Muslim Scriptures, old medical books and books of history, including ancient Buddhist records, to illustrate the theme.

Starting upon his journey from Jerusalem and passing from thence through Nasibus and Iran, Jesus is shown to have reached Afghanistan, where he met the Jews who had settled there after their deliverance from the bondage of Nebuchadnezzar.

From Afghanistan Jesus went to Kashmir, where some Israelite tribes had also settled. He made this place his home and here he died. His tomb has been traced and found in Khanyar Street, Srinagar. You can read the whole text online:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jes...eface.html

Also check out:
http://tombofjesus.com/

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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01-20-2010, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 09:35 AM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #2
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
(01-20-2010 06:32 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...Jesus’ escape from an ignominious death on the Cross...

Ahmadi, You've been fond of Bart Ehrman's work. Tell me, does Ehrman believe that Jesus died on the cross? What would he say about all of the foolishishness you're promoting with all of your links?

Parousia, GT, what does Ehrman have to say about Jesus' death on the cross?

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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01-20-2010, 10:06 AM
Post: #3
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
I think what Ahmadi is quoting here, is not from Bart Ehrman's work, but something else. Maybe Ahmadi can explain better, but as per Bible as well, Jesus didnt die on cross, and there are several reasons and facts about that, including testimony of diciples as well.

Please pay specially attention to Psalm 91:11-12, 15

Psalm 91
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say [b] of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

(According to the Noble Quran and the original writings of the Disciples of Jesus, Jesus was not crucified, and he watched the crucifixion of the doomed person.
Also, according to the Apocalypse of Peter that was discovered in Egypt, Jesus sat on the tree and watched the crucified one getting crucified. Peter witnessed this and wrote the Apocalypse. Not only that, but while Christians insist that the book is a Gnostic one, but according to Wikipedia.org, "It is unclear whether this text advocates an adoptionist (Jesus was Divine) or docetist (Jesus' body and crucifixion were an illusion) christology"

So there is no proof that the book is Gnostic.)



9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Footnotes:

Psalm 91:1 Hebrew Shaddai
Psalm 91:2 Or He says

http://www.answering-christianity.com/psalm_91.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm
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01-20-2010, 10:31 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 01:07 PM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #4
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
TruthOne and I see eye to eye on so many different issues, but not on this one.

I belong to Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and we have a very mundane (opposed to supernatural) understanding of Jesus Christ's life and death. He lived like a man like billions have before and since. So, if no archeological or other evidence was coming forth one should presume that Jeus died like any other man or prophet, like Moses, Aaron, Noah, Solomon, etc. etc.

But every so often religious zeal and legend elevates man to the status of God.

Now imagine if some one was condemned to death by law and is awaiting his punishment, and then he suddenly disappers. What would FBI be doing with all those who have information about the fugitive? Imagine how far would people go to save themselves from the wrath of FBI?

Compound this with the fact that Old Testament (Torah) said that whoever dies on the Cross is a false prophet. Under these two pressures, secular and spiritual, we have a perfect making for the legend of his divinity and incarnation and him dying on the cross, as he escaped from his tomb, where he was lying in coma.

The fact of the matter is that he survived his ordeal on the cross. Generally it takes days and not hours for a person to die. Additionally Jesus' legs were not broken when he was taken off the cross. Read a small booklet Christianity a journey from fact to fiction:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/chr...index.html

The Christian propaganda over the last 2000 years has not only influenced Bart Ehrman but also the reading of the Quran by the Sunni Muslims from medieval times onward. But in this thread I intend to debate with my Christian brethren. We can have a separate thread for Sunni versus Ahmadi debate, if TruthWon should so wish.

Agnostics and Atheists, help me out here to make Jesus human, that will decrease the gulf between you and the main body of Chrstians, and we will all live in greater peace and enlightenment.

Time to go Unitarian. President Thomas Jefferson wanted you to!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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01-20-2010, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 11:00 AM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #5
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
(01-20-2010 10:31 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...Old Testament (Torah) said that whoever dies on the Cross is a false prophet...

As I pointed out in another thread, you are misquoting the OT here. Why do you continue misquoting the Bible?


(01-20-2010 10:31 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...Christian propaganda...has...influenced Bart Ehrman...

Ah, I see. Bart Ehrman is not an objective scholar. Here at least I agree with you.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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01-20-2010, 11:21 AM
Post: #6
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
Stereophonic's technique is that if you ask the wrong questions the answers will not matter. He does not want people to see the BBC documentary that I have linked before. So, friends, break the Christian spell and propaganda of the last 2000 years and watch the half hour movie and then read the book Jesus in India mentioned above.

If you really get intrigued then also get the following checked out:

Jesus in India – King of Wisdom
This is a book and a documentary movie by Paul Davids. The film was chosen by the Sundance Channel for a national U.S. television broadcast as its Christmas documentary for 2008, with a prime time airing December 22nd and a repeat broadcast the day after Christmas and on the day of New Year’s Eve. Additionally, the International Television Division
of NBC Universal offers the film for broadcasts around the world.

To read the foreword of the book go to:

http://www.reviewofreligions.org/download/RR201001.pdf

The reference that Stereophonic did not share here is Galatians 3:13-14. Read the reference without assuming that Jesus died for you, just simple plain meaning. Thanks

Time to go Unitarian. President Thomas Jefferson would have wanted you to!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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01-20-2010, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 12:27 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #7
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
(01-20-2010 11:21 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...The reference that Stereophonic did not share here is Galatians 3:13-14. Read the reference without assuming that Jesus died for you, just simple plain meaning....

Here is the reference to Galatians 3:13-14.

Why should anyone read it as if Jesus had not died? The same author of Galatians also wrote 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, not to mention Galatians 1:1

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01-20-2010, 11:48 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 11:51 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #8
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
See, all of us are abhorrent of the suicidal missions of the terrorists. All of us condemn terrorism in no uncertain terms. At the same time all of us realize that suicide is not a good idea either. Under the Pauline Christianity's propaganda, rational and sensible Christians have come to believe that Jesus's suicide was a good idea. It never was, never is and never will be.

Jesus did not want to die on the cross, he was praying in the Garden to be excused from this misery.

The early Christians did not believe in any suicide mission, so they read the Old Testament like I am suggesting. It was a spiritual dilemma for them that their noble Jesus should be put on the cross and die on the cross and become cursed. This twisted logic came about later, their thinking was straight, like any Jew of the time will think. They believed Jesus to be a noble and a pious man not a cursed one. In this light read my prior comments.

Now imagine if some one was condemned to death by law and is awaiting his punishment, and then he suddenly disappers. What would FBI be doing with all those who have information about the fugitive? Imagine how far would people go to save themselves from the wrath of FBI?

Compound this with the fact that Old Testament (Torah) said that whoever dies on the Cross is a false prophet and is cursed. Under these two pressures, secular and spiritual, we have a perfect making for the legend of his divinity and incarnation and him dying on the cross.

This is how the fairy tales of dying on cross and ressurection came about. He did not die on the cross, God the father heard his earnest prayers in the Garden!

Time to go Unitarian. President Thomas Jefferson would have wanted you to!

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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01-20-2010, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 12:23 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #9
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
(01-20-2010 11:48 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...Old Testament (Torah) said that whoever dies on the Cross is a false prophet...

Why do you continue misquoting scripture even after you have been shown the correct passage many times now?

Is it impossible for you to win debate points without/unless resorting to deceptively false quotations? What does that say about the overall strength of your position?

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01-20-2010, 12:00 PM (This post was last modified: 01-20-2010 01:18 PM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #10
RE: Jesus did not die on the cross
Can any agnostic or atheist, or fair minded Christian, please instill some logic in Stereophonic's thoughts. We are talking about understanding of Old Testament how Jews of the time of Jesus' would have understood it.

But for my other readers, let me introduce to you a very accomplished writer and then his biography of Jesus Christ, son of Mary, a noble prophet of God. The author is none other than Sir Zafrulla Khan.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR:

"Sir Muhammad Zafrulla Khan was a Pakistani politician, diplomat, and international jurist, known particularly for his representation of Pakistan at the United Nations (UN).

The son of the leading attorney of his native city, Zafrulla Khan studied at Government College in Lahore and received his LL.B. from King's College, London University, in 1914. He practiced law in Sialkot and Lahore, became a member of the Punjab Legislative Council in 1926, and was a delegate in 1930, 1931, and 1932 to the Round Table Conferences on Indian reforms in London. In 1931–32 he was president of the All-India Muslim League (later the Muslim League), and he sat on the British viceroy's executive council as its Muslim member from 1935 to 1941. He led the Indian delegation to the League of Nations in 1939, and from 1941 to 1947 he served as a judge of the Federal Court of India.

Prior to the partition of India in 1947, Zafrulla Khan presented the Muslim League's view of the future boundaries of Pakistan to Sir Cyril Radcliffe, the man designated to decide the boundaries between India and Pakistan. Upon the independence of Pakistan, Zafrulla Khan became the new country's minister of foreign affairs and served concurrently as leader of Pakistan's delegation to the UN (1947–54). From 1954 to 1961 he served as a member of the International Court of Justice at The Hague. He again represented Pakistan at the UN in 1961–64 and served as president of the UN General Assembly in 1962–63. Returning to the International Court of Justice in 1964, he served as the court's president from 1970 to 1973.

He was knighted in 1935. He is the author of Islam: Its Meaning for Modern Man (1962) and wrote a translation of the Qur'an (1970)." [Encylopaedia Britannica]

The book is titeld:

Deliverance from the Cross.

A logical, rational and lucid biography of Jesus Christ, may peace be upon him, a Jewish Prophet. This short about 100 page biography recovers the person of Jesus from myth and mystery and restores him to true colors:

For the whole text of the biography of Jesus Christ go to:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Del...0607MN.pdf

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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