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Kingdom of God
09-27-2013, 09:54 PM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2013 10:27 PM by Edward.)
Post: #1
Kingdom of God
Someone says the "Kingdom of God" has already come. I can't find that passage that says it hasn't come so would like to debate this until I can find it again. I would be convinced if someone can show me where Jesus drinks from the fruit of the vine, drinks wine not vinegar, after the last supper.

Matt 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Luke 22:18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

The literal meaning to me of the Kingdom of God is after the second coming.

Here it is: This would indicate that the Kingdom of God did not come at the time of Crucifixion, Resurrection or Ascending into heaven.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,…
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09-27-2013, 10:26 PM
Post: #2
RE: Kingdom of God
When Jesus said "The Kingdom of God is within you" (the word "within" here in the Greek might appropriately means "amidst" in this setting), clearly he was telling people, then and there, that the Kingdom of God was present.

But what you said is true, the Kingdom of God was not present yet.

So which is it?

How about...both? There's a political Kingdom of God, and there's a spiritual. The political will come at the Second Coming, the spiritual came when Jesus established his pure religion.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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09-27-2013, 10:39 PM
Post: #3
RE: Kingdom of God
I believe the term "Kingdom of God" has a hidden Esoteric meaning as well as several others.

To me that term has several meanings.

First it is a Spiritual Realm that exists within all things and transcends all things.

Second it is a state of mind and presence which enters a person or group of people.

Third it has an Esoteric Meaning. "Narrow is the Way of Life and Few shall ever find it."

"....The Kingdom is Within You...."

When you are at peace, when you have found your center and through meditation and reflection gained wisdom and understanding then mentally you are in the kingdom of heaven.

There is a mental aspect to it, a spiritual aspect, and some day during the second coming there will be a political aspect to it as Shiver stated.

I don't believe Jesus is coming back on white clouds,
I believe the spirit of the Messiah will be Reincarnated.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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09-27-2013, 10:59 PM
Post: #4
RE: Kingdom of God
When He told the Pharisees the Kingdom of God was already present it was before the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension and all that. I think what he meant is himself. They did not recognise the Messiah even by their careful observation looking for him, which would be something the Pharisees would be doing. But the Kingdom of God was already within them, He was standing right before them. So He was speaking metaphorically, then goes on to explain how the coming of the literal Kingdom would be, like in the days of Noah.

In Luke 19:11 he makes a parable about the Kingdom of God which I think refers to the church on earth, what we should be doing now until His return.
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09-27-2013, 11:09 PM
Post: #5
RE: Kingdom of God
(09-27-2013 10:59 PM)Edward Wrote:  When He told the Pharisees the Kingdom of God was already present it was before the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension and all that. I think what he meant is himself. They did not recognise the Messiah even by their careful observation looking for him, which would be something the Pharisees would be doing. But the Kingdom of God was already within them, He was standing right before them. So He was speaking metaphorically, then goes on to explain how the coming of the literal Kingdom would be, like in the days of Noah.

In Luke 19:11 he makes a parable about the Kingdom of God which I think refers to the church on earth, what we should be doing now until His return.

"In those days there will be two men, one will be taken and one left behind."

"Not every one who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven."


There was a man waiting to board a ship, he'd been waiting a long time for it to get there and had to wait in a long line, the mans attention was caught by some thing interesting and he left only for a moment to entertain himself, when he returned to the harbor the ship had already set sail and the man was left stranded alone on his Island, there the man perished.

That is what the coming of his kingdom is like.

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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09-27-2013, 11:22 PM
Post: #6
RE: Kingdom of God
Ok well a flash flood. It happens quickly by surprise. Like lightning the flashes out of the east into the west. In the days of Noah meaning everybody is doing their own thing, not paying attention to God.

Matt 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

or Luke 17:21 leads up to it too in Luke 17:24 "For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other."
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09-27-2013, 11:32 PM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2013 11:35 PM by shiverleaf15.)
Post: #7
RE: Kingdom of God
Yes, and in fact, I was thinking about the parable of the pounds (or minas) myself as well.

Here's a principle for the political Kingdom of God given by Jesus himself:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This parable gives us one principle of what the Kingdom of Heaven needs: it needs to keep away from hurting the "tares" because the "wheat" inevitably will get hurt also. For centuries, magistrates believed they represented the one true religion, and used this as license to persecute heretics. However, in so doing, they also persecuted people who reflected true religion better than they (the magistrates). Don't hurt the tares, or you'll hurt the wheat: it's a principle of religious liberty. Roger Williams in the 17th century realized this, and established Providence Plantations as a colony governed by this principle, and also explained that a wall needed to separate church from state, in the sense of protecting all churches from the state's overbearing powers, and in protecting the affairs of the state from a single church's overbearing powers. Later the American Founding Fathers built upon this principle to establish the United States of America. Notably, the first state to declare independence from the British Empire was, in fact, Rhode Island, once called Providence Plantations: so in effect, modern America began as Rhode Island all the way back to Roger Williams. He is our nation's true founding father, and his ideas came from Jesus Christ himself.

There is, however, a second principle. Jesus Christ was a prophet, he knew the will of God and even if he ruled over people without forcing conversion upon them or persecution, he would have knowledge from God which would guide his leadership as king over his kingdom. This principle, of prophetic guidance in the political Kingdom of God, is lacking. This is why the USA is most certainly not the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now going back to what you said, Ed, about Jesus Christ "being" the Kingdom, I must say there's truth to that: he was the king, and he had the blueprint for the kingdom (the parable of the wheat and tares gives one principle of the kingdom, and his prophetic inspiration demonstrates a second principle of the kingdom). But he was not accepted by his people, and he told the Jews the following response:

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

You can take verse 43 of Matthew 21 to mean that Jesus was going to give the Kingdom of Heaven to a generic people, or perhaps to a specific nation indeed, who were also a people. Now of this, he specifies, it would be a people bringing forth the fruits of the Kingdom of Heaven before receiving the Kingdom's blueprint, which was all that Jesus had while he lived, and it is this which he was taking from among the Jews to give to another nation.

America was the first country to establish a government based on one principle of the political Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus gave to his disciples in the form of the parable of the wheat and tares. Are not his disciples his servants? Well then, whatever he has given them, those are the talents, those are also the pounds (or minas). He gave his disciples the parable of the wheat and tares as a mina, and for a long time it was kept wrapped in a handkerchief instead of put to good use, to multiply it. But Roger Williams put it to good use, he multiplied it, by putting the parable's principles into action, and from that flourished the United States. Thus this nation gave forth fruit meet for the Kingdom of Heaven. As a result, unto this nation, America, Jesus gave the blueprint in full of the Kingdom of Heaven, or so is my belief as a Latter-day Saint. In the 1840s, Joseph Smith received a revelation on the blueprint of the political Kingdom of Heaven: it was to institute religious freedom and its highest government body was to be made of fifty men, including non-LDS persons for fair representation, led at its head by God's presiding prophet at the time, thus receiving prophetic inspiration on what decisions to make, and having fifty men, even non-LDS men, to work with, such that unless there was unanimous unity, decisions could not be made. No matter what, though, religious liberty would be strongly upheld. This form of government synthesizes republican democracy with theocracy, and Joseph Smith called it "theodemocracy". As far as I'm concerned, I see in this the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy: he gave the blueprint which he owned to the Americans after taking it away from the Jews, once the Americans had established a government based on one of the principles of the Kingdom of God, thus demonstrating fruits met for the Kingdom.

Of course, Joseph Smith never established a political sovereign state nor was intending to, but the blueprint was given in preparation for what is to come. It is expected in LDS beliefs that one day America will collapse, permitting for us to establish its successor in spirit, a theodemocracy, in preparation for the time when Christ will come to become its head. It will be a place of safety and refuge in a time when all around the land will have collapsed into violent anarchy. In this we again see the principle of taking a mina and applying it to generate multiplication of the mina. In due time, Jesus Christ will return and he will establish his political Kingdom of God worldwide.
Let me just add: Roger Williams didn't just envision America, but he envisioned the Restoration. He believed Christianity was corrupt and needed apostolic restoration of authority to perform saving ordinances, and prophetic guidance, and so forth, and that it was going to happen, and he looked forward to it. I have high admiration for this man Big Grin

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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09-27-2013, 11:39 PM (This post was last modified: 09-27-2013 11:41 PM by Azrael17.)
Post: #8
RE: Kingdom of God
(09-27-2013 11:22 PM)Edward Wrote:  Ok well a flash flood. It happens quickly by surprise. Like lightning the flashes out of the east into the west. In the days of Noah meaning everybody is doing their own thing, not paying attention to God.

Matt 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

or Luke 17:21 leads up to it too in Luke 17:24 "For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other."

Lighting is there one instant and gone in a flash,
and not every one shall ignore god, just most people. In my beliefs this has always been happening, it happens every time we let opportunities pass us by.
That reminds me of Psalm 37

Too often people wait for miracles, when they are suppose to be some ones miracle. Spontaneous acts of kindness are the things of God.

We are the Body of Christ,
We are the Kingdom of God.....

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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09-28-2013, 12:11 AM (This post was last modified: 09-28-2013 12:15 AM by Edward.)
Post: #9
RE: Kingdom of God
Metaphorically the Kingdom of God is those who believe in Christ are part of his kingdom. But the literal meaning is at the second coming. Does everybody deny the resurrection and judgement day? He meant in general the kingdom of God, himself the Messiah, would be taken from the Jews, so the Messiah came to the Gentiles, not America. The capstone of the Jews, the king of Judaism, was rejected and became the cornerstone for the Gentiles, the first stone laid in Christianity. The Jews were the first Christians. Jews were already spread all over the world and had synagogues in various places. Paul on his journey always went to the Jewish synagogues first, then if the Jewish leaders rejected him he went to the Gentiles. So he wasnt rejecting the Jews as a whole, only those who rejected him first. Jews were his first servants spreading the gospel. Sort of vain to exclude them and say Joseph smith was some sort of somebody greater than them.

It's not any one particular church or denomination, all people from any nation who believe in Christ are part of his kingdom. When the Apostles converted people show me where they had them sign a membership roster.
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09-28-2013, 12:28 AM
Post: #10
RE: Kingdom of God
The blueprint of the political kingdom came to America. The early Christian Gentiles could not have been the ones to receive the blueprint because they received the Gospel when they had brought forth no fruits met for the Kingdom of Heaven. That is key in understanding the subject. Also, Daniel 2, which says that the stone cut out of the mountain would break the kingdoms of the Earth: the kingdom, says Daniel 2, would be established in the days of the post-Roman kingdoms, and later topple them down. Key: in their days it would be established, and later it would topple them. Jesus speaks of the stumblingblock as breaking down anything that comes against it. It's an allusion to Daniel 2: the stone as the kingdom. The early Gentiles lived before the post-Roman kingdoms though.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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