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Marriage?
10-21-2009, 08:20 PM
Post: #1
Marriage?
Galatians 5 23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.

Jeremias 16 2 Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou have thee sons and daughters in this place.

If Christ believed that marriage was a prerequisite to being a spiritual leader, He would have been married Himself.

Since He was not, it is in the court of the "pro-marriage for the pope" crowd, to establish why this should be part of the job description
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10-21-2009, 09:11 PM
Post: #2
RE: Marriage?
(10-21-2009 08:20 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  If Christ believed that marriage was a prerequisite to being a spiritual leader, He would have been married Himself.

Since He was not, it is in the court of the "pro-marriage for the pope" crowd, to establish why this should be part of the job description

It would be difficult and awkward for an itinerant preacher to be married in an era when transporation meant walking, and eating once you got there often meant begging. The Pope is the head of a giant multi-national corporation with no worries about traveling or eating. Why should one bear on the other? There may or may not be reasons that a Pope should be allowed to marry. But "Jesus was not married" is not in itself an argument.
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10-21-2009, 09:25 PM
Post: #3
RE: Marriage?
(10-21-2009 09:11 PM)Parousia Wrote:  
(10-21-2009 08:20 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  If Christ believed that marriage was a prerequisite to being a spiritual leader, He would have been married Himself.

Since He was not, it is in the court of the "pro-marriage for the pope" crowd, to establish why this should be part of the job description

It would be difficult and awkward for an itinerant preacher to be married in an era when transporation meant walking, and eating once you got there often meant begging. The Pope is the head of a giant multi-national corporation with no worries about traveling or eating. Why should one bear on the other? There may or may not be reasons that a Pope should be allowed to marry. But "Jesus was not married" is not in itself an argument.
Celibacy of the Clergy
Speaking, for the moment, only of Western Christendom, the candidates for orders are solemnly warned by the bishop at the beginning of the ceremony regarding the gravity of the obligation which they are incurring. He tells them:

You ought anxiously to consider again and again what sort of a burden this is which you are taking upon you of your own accord. Up to this you are free. You may still, if you choose, turn to the aims and desires of the world (licet vobis pro artitrio ad caecularia vota transire). But if you receive this order (of the subdiaconate) it will no longer be lawful to turn back from your purpose. You will be required to continue in the service of God, and with His assistance to observe chastity and to be bound for ever in the ministrations of the Altar, to serve who is to reign.

By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in the rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently by a vow of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any serious transgression in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs the additional guilt of sacrilege.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm
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10-21-2009, 09:59 PM
Post: #4
RE: Marriage?
(10-21-2009 09:25 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  Celibacy of the Clergy
Speaking, for the moment, only of Western Christendom, the candidates for orders are solemnly warned by the bishop at the beginning of the ceremony regarding the gravity of the obligation which they are incurring. He tells them:

You ought anxiously to consider again and again what sort of a burden this is which you are taking upon you of your own accord. Up to this you are free. You may still, if you choose, turn to the aims and desires of the world (licet vobis pro artitrio ad caecularia vota transire). But if you receive this order (of the subdiaconate) it will no longer be lawful to turn back from your purpose. You will be required to continue in the service of God, and with His assistance to observe chastity and to be bound for ever in the ministrations of the Altar, to serve who is to reign.

By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in the rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently by a vow of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any serious transgression in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs the additional guilt of sacrilege.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

That is a description of the vow of chatity, not a justification.
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10-21-2009, 10:03 PM
Post: #5
RE: Marriage?
(10-21-2009 09:59 PM)Parousia Wrote:  
(10-21-2009 09:25 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  Celibacy of the Clergy
Speaking, for the moment, only of Western Christendom, the candidates for orders are solemnly warned by the bishop at the beginning of the ceremony regarding the gravity of the obligation which they are incurring. He tells them:

You ought anxiously to consider again and again what sort of a burden this is which you are taking upon you of your own accord. Up to this you are free. You may still, if you choose, turn to the aims and desires of the world (licet vobis pro artitrio ad caecularia vota transire). But if you receive this order (of the subdiaconate) it will no longer be lawful to turn back from your purpose. You will be required to continue in the service of God, and with His assistance to observe chastity and to be bound for ever in the ministrations of the Altar, to serve who is to reign.

By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in the rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently by a vow of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any serious transgression in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs the additional guilt of sacrilege.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

That is a description of the vow of chatity, not a justification.

So You can break a Vow to G-D anytime You want and not go to Hell?
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10-21-2009, 10:13 PM
Post: #6
RE: Marriage?
(10-21-2009 10:03 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  
(10-21-2009 09:59 PM)Parousia Wrote:  That is a description of the vow of charity, not a justification.

So You can break a Vow to G-D anytime You want and not go to Hell?

The point is that the vow is the current position of the Church, not a theological mandate. It is entirely possible for the vow to be no longer required, at least not of all priests. Already it is usually set aside for married Anglican priests who convert and want to be Catholic priests. This is the subject of another thread.
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10-22-2009, 04:22 AM
Post: #7
RE: Marriage?
(10-21-2009 10:13 PM)Parousia Wrote:  
(10-21-2009 10:03 PM)catholicstation Wrote:  
(10-21-2009 09:59 PM)Parousia Wrote:  That is a description of the vow of charity, not a justification.

So You can break a Vow to G-D anytime You want and not go to Hell?

The point is that the vow is the current position of the Church, not a theological mandate. It is entirely possible for the vow to be no longer required, at least not of all priests. Already it is usually set aside for married Anglican priests who convert and want to be Catholic priests. This is the subject of another thread.

Go have an affair and tell your wife it was only sex - see if she buys your crap


Celibacy of the Clergy
Speaking, for the moment, only of Western Christendom, the candidates for orders are solemnly warned by the bishop at the beginning of the ceremony regarding the gravity of the obligation which they are incurring. He tells them:

You ought anxiously to consider again and again what sort of a burden this is which you are taking upon you of your own accord. Up to this you are free. You may still, if you choose, turn to the aims and desires of the world (licet vobis pro artitrio ad caecularia vota transire). But if you receive this order (of the subdiaconate) it will no longer be lawful to turn back from your purpose. You will be required to continue in the service of God, and with His assistance to observe chastity and to be bound for ever in the ministrations of the Altar, to serve who is to reign.

By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in the rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently by a vow of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any serious transgression in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs the additional guilt of sacrilege.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm
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10-22-2009, 07:19 AM
Post: #8
RE: Marriage?
(10-22-2009 04:22 AM)catholicstation Wrote:  Go have an affair and tell your wife it was only sex - see if she buys your crap.

What does that have to do with the issue of whether it is possible for the Catholic Church to eliminate the Vow of Chastity for the clergy? You seem to be doggedly arguing that point despite the demonstrated power of the Vatican to suspend it for married Anglican priests who convert and wished to be ordained as Catholic priests. Without your recognition of that power it is useless to continue on to the desirabilty, or not, of a more widespread suspension of the vow.

Also, you seem to be arguing with someone who is not actually on this thread.
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10-23-2009, 12:55 AM
Post: #9
RE: Marriage?
There is no evidence he didn't have a wife,
there is no evidence he had a wife.

If you say he is unmarried than I say he was married just for the sake of the debate, now shall we!

Is it a Sin for a man to Marry a Woman?
No!

Is it a Sin for a man to please his wife?
No!

Your one of those people who believe his blood is what saves you instead of his Way!

Well if Jesus had a wife than it wouldn't have mattered any way, he would have still had all the requirements to be your stupid Scape Goat!

"I'm not going to shed my brothers blood just because he says it's okay! I'm not going to brake my brothers bones just because he says it's okay! If you use Christ as a get out of hell for free card, then you'l go to hell any way. He Returned from the dead, and that was His Return, then he went to heaven. Some people are still waiting for him, but he lives in you and me as a Philosophy. God demands Effort not Folly. Help people up when they fall down, but never try to be wise with a fool. The Holy Spirit is Wisdom and Knowledge, it is Sophia the Risen who has broken free from her master Michael the fallen voice of God. Michael came down to the Mother after Gabriel and delivered into the Mother's womb a child. The child denied the teachings of the Warrior Michael instead being enlightened by Sophia the Risen. When the child began his journey he was washed in the waters of purity than the spirit of Sophia came into his being. From that moment onward he was a Son of God till his death as the Son of man where Sophia left him to split the temple. It is the Angel of Wisdom that people call the Holy Spirit. A child shall be born in a desolate war ridden town, this child will be female, and she will be like the Lord for she will be Wisdom Incarnate. For 3 years she will testify to the Truth and She will make war against the Anti-Christ whom shall be a Wealthy male. She will convert the Anti-Christ into a Christian. After doing so the Envious followers of him will bring death upon her and she will be reborn again this time also a female but this time she will be the second Christ!"

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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10-24-2009, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 10-24-2009 06:06 PM by catholicstation.)
Post: #10
RE: Marriage?
(10-23-2009 12:55 AM)Azrael17 Wrote:  There is no evidence he didn't have a wife,
there is no evidence he had a wife.

If you say he is unmarried than I say he was married just for the sake of the debate, now shall we!

Is it a Sin for a man to Marry a Woman?
No!

Is it a Sin for a man to please his wife?
No!
There is no evidence he didn't have a wife,
If Jesus had a wife she would have been at the Foot of the Cross with His Mother

Is it a Sin for a man to Marry a Woman?
Yes if you take a vow of chastity first or are Commanded not to do so
Jeremias 16 1 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 2 Thou shalt not take thee a wife, neither shalt thou have thee sons and daughters in this place.


Is it a Sin for a man to please his wife?
Moses chose to remain continent the rest of his life with the full approval of God. The rabbis explained that this was so because Moses knew that he was appointed to personally commune with God, not only at Mount Sinai but in general throughout the forty years of sojourning in the wilderness. For this reason Moses kept himself "apart from woman," remaining in the sanctity of separation to be at the beck and call of God at all times; they cited God's command to Moses in Deuteronomy 5:28 (Midrash Exodus Rabbah 19:3 and 46.3).
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TALMUD.HTM
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