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Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
02-03-2010, 05:25 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2010 05:48 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #1
Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
Taken from the Ahmadi's receommended Islamic pamphlet, How to be Free from Sin:

Quote:Islam today is in a very precarious state, and its light has been almost completely eclipsed. The Muslims have erred not only in their beliefs but also in their practices... For example, Divine law has established three basic human rights: One must not kill an innocent person, one must not injure someone’s honour, and one must not unjustly appropriate another person’s property. And yet there are Muslims who break all three of these commandments. They murder innocent people and do not fear God, and their foolish Maulawis have even issued edicts declaring it lawful to lure away or capture women of other religions—whom they consider infidels—and to take them as wives.
...
They lack any sense of moderation in words, actions, morals, marriage, divorce, parsimony, wastefulness, anger, mercy, revenge, or forgiveness. They are in a strange quandary; their ignorance has no limits and their transgression knows no bounds. If these people, who hold up the banner of Tauhid and moderation, have crossed all limits, is there any use lamenting over the condition of the people of other faiths?


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02-03-2010, 05:56 PM
Post: #2
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
Stereophonic

Morality of nations can go downhill and trials help them improve it. Read the history of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Here is the link:

http://muslimsunrise.com/index.php?optio...3&Itemid=1

No matter what sects of Islam they may belong to, Muslims are united against the dogmas of Trinity, Christian style atonement, Original Sin, and resurrection. Actually not only the Muslims, all the Jews and even Hindus, Buddhists and all other living religions are opposed to these dogmas that were inventions of St. Paul.

As I have said else where, Christianity is in quagmire with reason. That is the real story for the 21st century, an information age, and Muslims have a united stand on this.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-03-2010, 10:46 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2010 11:21 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #3
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
(02-03-2010 05:56 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...Muslims are united against the dogmas of Trinity, Christian style atonement, Original Sin, and resurrection...

That may be true, but I have yet to meet a Muslim who has engaged in any genuine effort to understand how Christians think of these doctrines (with the exception, of course, of those Muslims who did in fact make the effort, which then lead to their conversion to Christianity).


(02-03-2010 05:56 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...not only the Muslims, all the Jews and even Hindus, Buddhists and all other living religions are opposed to these dogmas...

I agree with you that Christianity is in a class by itself, in comparison to other religions.


(02-03-2010 05:56 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...Christianity is in quagmire with reason...

God's boundless love for humanity is, in a sense, beyond all reason--especially since the world that we have created for ourselves, with all its violence and deceit and greed, is so contrary to God's original and best intentions for us.

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02-04-2010, 03:51 AM
Post: #4
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
(02-03-2010 05:25 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  Taken from the Ahmadi's receommended Islamic pamphlet, How to be Free from Sin:

Quote:Islam today is in a very precarious state, and its light has been almost completely eclipsed. The Muslims have erred not only in their beliefs but also in their practices... For example, Divine law has established three basic human rights: One must not kill an innocent person, one must not injure someone’s honour, and one must not unjustly appropriate another person’s property. And yet there are Muslims who break all three of these commandments. They murder innocent people and do not fear God, and their foolish Maulawis have even issued edicts declaring it lawful to lure away or capture women of other religions—whom they consider infidels—and to take them as wives.
...
They lack any sense of moderation in words, actions, morals, marriage, divorce, parsimony, wastefulness, anger, mercy, revenge, or forgiveness. They are in a strange quandary; their ignorance has no limits and their transgression knows no bounds. If these people, who hold up the banner of Tauhid and moderation, have crossed all limits, is there any use lamenting over the condition of the people of other faiths?

Umm Stereo you got the eclipse thing wrong. There is no such thing as an eclipse. Surah 36:38-40 "It is not permitted for the Sun to overtake the Moon".
Sorry to tell you this Sad
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02-04-2010, 04:27 AM
Post: #5
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
(02-03-2010 05:56 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  Stereophonic

Morality of nations can go downhill and trials help them improve it. Read the history of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Here is the link:

http://muslimsunrise.com/index.php?optio...3&Itemid=1

No matter what sects of Islam they may belong to, Muslims are united against the dogmas of Trinity, Christian style atonement, Original Sin, and resurrection. Actually not only the Muslims, all the Jews and even Hindus, Buddhists and all other living religions are opposed to these dogmas that were inventions of St. Paul.

As I have said else where, Christianity is in quagmire with reason. That is the real story for the 21st century, an information age, and Muslims have a united stand on this.

We are perhaps seeing the emergence of the real Ahmadi, someone with a degree of antagonism towards the christian faith if not christians themselves. Which would seem to be a hallmark of Islam itself.
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02-04-2010, 06:39 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2010 06:51 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #6
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
(02-04-2010 04:27 AM)minus459 Wrote:  We are perhaps seeing the emergence of the real Ahmadi, someone with a degree of antagonism towards the christian faith if not christians themselves. Which would seem to be a hallmark of Islam itself.

As you noted, I have nothing against Christians. I love to live in the Christian world and I would not like to live in the present day Muslim world at all. The Christian world is a beautiful place and has been made by people like GT and Parousia. You, Stereophonic and me just like to live there and should start paying our dues.

Let me share a religio-political joke with you. In Pakistan 20 years ago there was a Martial Law administrator by the name of Gen Zia Ul Haq. He was supported into power by US to deal with the USSR invasion of Afghanistan. At any rate, after he had ruled as a dictator for a number of years, he decided to be the elected leader of the fools. He conducted a referendum, nation wide. The question was 'Do you love Islam?' A yes answer meant that he will be the duely elected president. I did answer no but the majority of fools who showed up at the polling booths did answer yes. The referendum would have been like President Bush after his 8 years ignoring the constitution running a referendum, 'Do you love Jesus?'

So, allow me to have a nuance position. I do not have to love and accept every thing that you stand for to be a good reasonable person. The dogmas of Christianity are simply wrong. Stereophonic just acknowledged in this thread that these are unique in the sense that no other existing religion has any part of it. Islam is not unique in that position, Christianity's dogmas make it the odd man out. They have been a source of a lot of problems in 2000 years, both internal and external to the Christendom. Yes, in that sense I am against them and I have reasons and materials to prove them wrong, and my doing that will usher an age of peace and unification of humanity never known before.

The adulterated accounts of the Bible did not satisfy Jefferson. After extensive studies of different books Jefferson concluded:

"Christianity had traditionally rested not upon reason or experience but upon mystery and miracle. The Bible, moreover, portrayed a deity quite different from that revealed in nature, a deity that reason could neither explain nor defend. How rational could it possibly be for the God of the whole universe to reveal himself solely to one small nation in the eastern Mediterranean and to leave the rest of the world in utter ignorance of his existence? It seemed even more irrational to believe that the Supreme Being of the cosmos had ‘sent his only begotten son,’ who had not offended him, to be sacrificed by men, who had offended him that he might expiate their sins, and satisfy his own anger."

As I have said before I am his ambassador. To read more about the religious views of President Thomas Jefferson go to:

http://knol.google.com/k/zia-shah/presid...umbuyp/26#

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-04-2010, 07:26 AM
Post: #7
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
LINE 1 .That is not what I noted at all, in fact the opposite, it may be in the translation.
Zia Ul Haq was a murderous muslim dictator
"I do not have to love and accept every thing that you stand for to be a good reasonable person."
You do not have the foggiest notion of what I stand for, but you are right either way it makes no difference to whether or not you are a good reasonable person.
Thmas Jefferson was President of some foreign country (like Zia Ul Haq) and as such does not even enter my conscienciousness. I fail to see how the religious views of another man should influence mine.
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02-04-2010, 08:10 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2010 08:16 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #8
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
Once we remove the dogmas of Christianity what remains is the same as Islam. In that sense I love Christianity.

Most people who are indoctrinated in Christianity cannot genuinely understand the character of Muhammad, may peace be upon him, as soon as they begin to understand they are called Muslims! This is because of the centuries of the propaganda that has gone before. It is not any one individual's fault, yours or Stereophonic's. Most people want to see him as some one with multiple wives and spreading the religion with sword etc. "If we could view Muhammad as we do any other important historical figure we would surely consider him to be one of the greatest geniuses the world has known." (Karen Armstrong)

If stakes are high and need be, the Christian apologists will malign any effective Muslim, that is where the character of President Thomas Jefferson comes in, if they malign him they expose themselves. I bring his quotes, to make my Christian friends, here I include those who are agnostics but grew up christians, understand and bridge the gap that exists in the understanding of the two communities. Writing on this forum I have realized that the most enlightened agnostics, who grew up as Christian still carry parts of the software of Christian paradigm in their minds.

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."
–John F. Kennedy, Remarks at dinner honoring Nobel Prize winners of the Western Hemisphere, April 29, 1962

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-04-2010, 08:59 AM
Post: #9
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
Is that meant to be a response, or mean something relevant to what I posted?
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02-04-2010, 10:27 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2010 10:28 AM by Ahmadi.)
Post: #10
RE: Muslims, what are your thoughts on this?
So that the starting post of Stereophonic does not create a wrong impression, let me say that when the Muslims are genuinely following the ideals of Islam, they are described as the best people:

"You are the best people raised for the good of mankind; you enjoin what is good and forbid evil and believe in Allah. And if the People of the Book had believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are disobedient." (Al Quran 3:111)

Let me reiterate what Karen Armstrong has written, "If we could view Muhammad as we do any other important historical figure we would surely consider him to be one of the greatest geniuses the world has known." I would like to amplify that by saying that if fair minded Christians could genuinely begin to see Muhammad, peace be upon him, cutting through the noise that is out there, they will know him to be 'the' Prophet of God, with the final message for all of us.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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