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My Understanding
11-05-2008, 02:34 PM
Post: #1
My Understanding
My understanding is that:

There is one God who loves us and before whom we (especially men and women) are absolutely equal

God is eternal, neither male nor female and as far beyond us in intelligence as we are beyond an insect

There is neither a heaven nor a hell (we are here to learn and are reincarnated until we achieve that)

Women alone have the right to make contraception and termination decisions

If we ask, God will give us guidance and strength

All sacred scriptures are only imperfect translations on the Covenant God has made with us (as we mature, God sends us updated covenants)

Your comments are welcome.
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11-07-2008, 02:29 PM
Post: #2
RE: My Understanding
Messenger Wrote:My understanding is that:

There is one God who loves us and before whom we (especially men and women) are absolutely equal

God is eternal, neither male nor female and as far beyond us in intelligence as we are beyond an insect

There is neither a heaven nor a hell (we are here to learn and are reincarnated until we achieve that)

Women alone have the right to make contraception and termination decisions

If we ask, God will give us guidance and strength

All sacred scriptures are only imperfect translations on the Covenant God has made with us (as we mature, God sends us updated covenants)

Your comments are welcome.
Oh where do I begin....

You had me until your third point.

How is it that there is an eternal God who loves His children yet does not punish them for doing wrong. The very fact that God exists shows that there must be a place where His abiding presence ensures peace, love, stability, and justice.

Where is your basis for your belief that we are "reincarnated"?

What is your basis that women alone can contracept-and if they get pregnent-then kill their unborn babies?

If we continue to turn away from what God wants for our own good, that is we do evil and avoid good, how can God give us the grace of strength and guidence when we habitually refuse to follow that grace?

How do you know that the scriptures are not His divine Revelation? By what authority do you make this decision?

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."-Darth Vader
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11-07-2008, 05:16 PM
Post: #3
RE: My Understanding
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Oh where do I begin....

You had me until your third point.

How is it that there is an eternal God who loves His children yet does not punish them for doing wrong. The very fact that God exists shows that there must be a place where His abiding presence ensures peace, love, stability, and justice.

Where is your basis for your belief that we are "reincarnated"?

What is your basis that women alone can contracept-and if they get pregnent-then kill their unborn babies?

If we continue to turn away from what God wants for our own good, that is we do evil and avoid good, how can God give us the grace of strength and guidence when we habitually refuse to follow that grace?

How do you know that the scriptures are not His divine Revelation? By what authority do you make this decision?

If you want to know exactly where I'm coming from, go here:

http://godscovenant.xtreemhost.com/
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11-11-2008, 02:15 PM
Post: #4
RE: My Understanding
Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Oh where do I begin....

You had me until your third point.

How is it that there is an eternal God who loves His children yet does not punish them for doing wrong. The very fact that God exists shows that there must be a place where His abiding presence ensures peace, love, stability, and justice.

Where is your basis for your belief that we are "reincarnated"?

What is your basis that women alone can contracept-and if they get pregnent-then kill their unborn babies?

If we continue to turn away from what God wants for our own good, that is we do evil and avoid good, how can God give us the grace of strength and guidence when we habitually refuse to follow that grace?

How do you know that the scriptures are not His divine Revelation? By what authority do you make this decision?

If you want to know exactly where I'm coming from, go here:

http://godscovenant.xtreemhost.com/

I read from your link and I see nothing that shows me by what authority do you derive your belief other than your own limited world view.

In other words I see where your coming from, I just want to know what is the difference between what you proclaim to be the "truth" and what, say, L. Ron Hubbard proclaims to be the truth?

How do you know that what you believe is true? Am I just to take your word for it?

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."-Darth Vader
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11-11-2008, 02:54 PM
Post: #5
RE: My Understanding
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:I read from your link and I see nothing that shows me by what authority do you derive your belief other than your own limited world view.

In other words I see where your coming from, I just want to know what is the difference between what you proclaim to be the "truth" and what, say, L. Ron Hubbard proclaims to be the truth?

How do you know that what you believe is true? Am I just to take your word for it?

How is what Messenger is saying any different than that of the Bible, the Quran, the Bahagavita, or, yes, even Dianetics? You are a religious person yourself, so whichever text is your chosen one, you are still essentially taking someone's word for it.

Also, we're talking about *belief* and *faith* here. He (or she) has just as much authority for their claims as any of the texts mentioned above do.

If ignorance is bliss why aren't there more happy people?
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11-11-2008, 03:15 PM
Post: #6
RE: My Understanding
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:I read from your link and I see nothing that shows me by what authority do you derive your belief other than your own limited world view.

In other words I see where your coming from, I just want to know what is the difference between what you proclaim to be the "truth" and what, say, L. Ron Hubbard proclaims to be the truth?

How do you know that what you believe is true? Am I just to take your word for it?
I am an ex-atheist. A few years ago, at one instant, I "knew" there was no God and at the next instant, I knew there was a God. That is proof to me but not to anyone else. God asked me to write the new covenant. I resisted then wrote it and left it on my computer's hard drive for five years. God then asked me to publish it. I resisted then put it on a free website. I have no proof that any of this is inspired by God. God gave you a brain to think and free will to choose. Read and follow the covenant or not as you choose. But, unlike Scientologists, I don't charge anything.

If you have any comments about or criticisms of the covenant, I'll try to answer them.
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11-11-2008, 03:28 PM
Post: #7
RE: My Understanding
Messenger Wrote:But, unlike Scientologists, I don't charge anything.

Hahahaha! I lol'd. Big Grin

If ignorance is bliss why aren't there more happy people?
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11-11-2008, 04:29 PM (This post was last modified: 11-11-2008 04:33 PM by The Grey Pilgrim.)
Post: #8
RE: My Understanding
Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:I read from your link and I see nothing that shows me by what authority do you derive your belief other than your own limited world view.

In other words I see where your coming from, I just want to know what is the difference between what you proclaim to be the "truth" and what, say, L. Ron Hubbard proclaims to be the truth?

How do you know that what you believe is true? Am I just to take your word for it?
I am an ex-atheist. A few years ago, at one instant, I "knew" there was no God and at the next instant, I knew there was a God. That is proof to me but not to anyone else. God asked me to write the new covenant. I resisted then wrote it and left it on my computer's hard drive for five years. God then asked me to publish it. I resisted then put it on a free website. I have no proof that any of this is inspired by God. God gave you a brain to think and free will to choose. Read and follow the covenant or not as you choose. But, unlike Scientologists, I don't charge anything.

If you have any comments about or criticisms of the covenant, I'll try to answer them.

Messenger Wrote:"When your body dies,
If you have learned
What you need to learn,
You become one with me.
Otherwise, you are reborn."

So where are those who are reborn? Do they remember their prior lives? If not how are they to learn since they bear no greater capacity than that which they had before?

Do you agree that we are made in the image and likeness of God?

Messenger Wrote:"I love you without condition or limit.
In honor of that,
Love others
Especially those who hate you."
&

Quote:"Do not worship me.
Do not love me.
Do not fear me."

According to you what is love?

How can there be a God that loves us but does not require us to love Him in return?

Messenger Wrote:'If you ask,
I will give you guidance
And the strength to bear
What must be borne."

If I am not to love Him why would I ask Him for guidence?

Messenger Wrote:"As a mother, you alone
May choose whether to terminate a fetus."


"If you are pregnant,
Ask me for guidance
Before you terminate a fetus."

How is it "loving another" to kill a fetus in the womb?

And the above is contradictory to the prior statement. It says "you alone may choose to terminate a fetus." Yet after that you write "ask me for guidence". If the mother alone can terminate a fetus why does she have to ask God for guidence? According to this women are the masters of life and death-not God.

It also contradicts the above statement:" Do not injure or kill any human being."

If a fetus isn't a human being then what is it? According to scientists there exists either animals, plants, or minerals. Is that fetus, which has 23 human chromosomes from a human father and 23 chromosomes from a human mother, going to be a rock or a palm tree? No. Than it leaves only animals. Is it going to spontaneously mutate into a duck? No. It is a human being.

The sprem and the egg combine and the process of human life begins. It is a person, while the fetus is made up of that DNA which comes of the father and of the mother, it is neither the mother, nor the father. It is not just another clump of cells. One can say humanity at its lowest common denominator is just a bunch of cells therefore what's to stop anyone from killing another for that very reason?

That fetus has it's own genetic makeup distinct from either parent.

And love requires that that person, made by God, be allowed to gow and develop into his/her fullness. If, according to your "covenant", God loves us and requires us to love each other, to claim to possess the ability to kill a person at any stage of development-from conception to natural death- must be rejected.

Messenger Wrote:"Male with female,
Male with male,
Female with female--

All these relationships
Are equal before me."

Do you mean sexual relationships?

Messenger Wrote:"There is no evil one.

There is
Evil and suffering
In the world.

It exists
Because of the evil
Everyone has done
In this life
And past lives."


Don't you agree that in a sense these passages are contradictory?

I believe that evil is a result of hatred stemming from a distrust on a cosmic level. We as human beings distrust the cosmos, therefore we distrust the One who brought forth the cosmos and set us in it. We distrust others and that distrust breeds hatred and evil. But I also believe that our distrust was not a seed planted by God and is not a part of our original nature. That begs the question where did that seed of distrust come from? Do you know?

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."-Darth Vader
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11-12-2008, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2008 04:22 PM by Messenger.)
Post: #9
RE: My Understanding
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:So where are those who are reborn?
God didn't say. I assume we are reborn into human bodies. Other than having an "old" soul, they/we aren't any different than other human beings. Since the number of human beings on the planet is increasing, God is obviously creating new souls as well.

The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Do they remember their prior lives?
God didn't say.

The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:If not how are they to learn since they bear no greater capacity than that which they had before?
Good point. There must be some mechanism. They do have different brains.

The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Do you agree that we are made in the image and likeness of God?
God didn't say. I don't care one way or the other.

The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:According to you what is love?
In English, "love" is ambiguous since it has multiple meanings. The "love" referred to in the covenant is something like that which a parent feels for their child.

The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:How can there be a God that loves us but does not require us to love Him in return?
I don't see how one is related to the other.

The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:If I am not to love Him why would I ask Him for guidence?
Because God is wiser than we are.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:How is it "loving another" to kill a fetus in the womb?
Your assumption is that when the sperm fertilizes the egg, the fetus becomes a human being. That section you quoted states that a fetus becomes a human being when it receives its soul. It receives its soul when God decides to give it one not necessarily at the moment of conception. "Love one another" refers to human beings.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:And the above is contradictory to the prior statement. It says "you alone may choose to terminate a fetus." Yet after that you write "ask me for guidence". If the mother alone can terminate a fetus why does she have to ask God for guidence? According to this women are the masters of life and death-not God.
Even if you make the decision, you can still ask others for advice. And yes, with regard to human reproduction, women alone control it. I have no idea why God delegated that particular task to women.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:It also contradicts the above statement:" Do not injure or kill any human being."
My previous comment about fetus versus human being applies here as well.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:If a fetus isn't a human being then what is it? According to scientists there exists either animals, plants, or minerals. Is that fetus, which has 23 human chromosomes from a human father and 23 chromosomes from a human mother, going to be a rock or a palm tree? No. Than it leaves only animals. Is it going to spontaneously mutate into a duck? No. It is a human being.
A fetus is an immature human body. It becomes a human being when it receives a soul which happens at a time God determines not necessarily at conception.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:The sprem and the egg combine and the process of human life begins. It is a person, while the fetus is made up of that DNA which comes of the father and of the mother, it is neither the mother, nor the father. It is not just another clump of cells. One can say humanity at its lowest common denominator is just a bunch of cells therefore what's to stop anyone from killing another for that very reason?

That fetus has it's own genetic makeup distinct from either parent.

And love requires that that person, made by God, be allowed to gow and develop into his/her fullness. If, according to your "covenant", God loves us and requires us to love each other, to claim to possess the ability to kill a person at any stage of development-from conception to natural death- must be rejected.
My previous comment about fetus versus human being applies here as well.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Do you mean sexual relationships?
Yes, the section you quoted from is about sex.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Don't you agree that in a sense these passages are contradictory?
No, I don't see how the passages are even related. There is no evil one but there is evil that we (human beings) have caused. Two separate statements.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:I believe that evil is a result of hatred stemming from a distrust on a cosmic level. We as human beings distrust the cosmos, therefore we distrust the One who brought forth the cosmos and set us in it. We distrust others and that distrust breeds hatred and evil. But I also believe that our distrust was not a seed planted by God and is not a part of our original nature. That begs the question where did that seed of distrust come from? Do you know?
I'm just a messenger. I wrote down (as best I could) what God told me. I don't have any special knowledge beyond that.
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11-18-2008, 11:00 AM
Post: #10
RE: My Understanding
Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Do you agree that we are made in the image and likeness of God?
God didn't say. I don't care one way or the other.

Why?
Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:According to you what is love?
In English, "love" is ambiguous since it has multiple meanings. The "love" referred to in the covenant is something like that which a parent feels for their child.

Love, at it's most fundamental meaning, is an act of the intellect and will; love is a choice. Love has nothing to do with "feelings". Lust, affection, etc. are feelings. They point to love but love isn't exhausted by those feelings. The purest form of love is sacrifice, the total and complete self-offering of one person to another.

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:How can there be a God that loves us but does not require us to love Him in return?
I don't see how one is related to the other.

How?

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:If I am not to love Him why would I ask Him for guidence?
Because God is wiser than we are.

Let me rephrase: If I am not to love Him why would I bother trusting anything He says? In other words if I am a father who created and raised children of my own then there would have to be something done by the children to confirm the love given. Have you ever been in a relationship where you gave love but never received love in return? That kind of relationship is empty and superficial. I believe that a wise God, who bestows onto man his very life breath, would have every right to require that love in return.

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:How is it "loving another" to kill a fetus in the womb?
Your assumption is that when the sperm fertilizes the egg, the fetus becomes a human being. That section you quoted states that a fetus becomes a human being when it receives its soul. It receives its soul when God decides to give it one not necessarily at the moment of conception. "Love one another" refers to human beings.

My assertion isn't an assumption but scientific fact. Even most scientists agree now that at the moment the sperm and the egg meet and cell division begins that that is the point where life begins. If there is not a soul active at that moment then how do you explain the cell division? How is it that life can exist without directly being willed by God?

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:And the above is contradictory to the prior statement. It says "you alone may choose to terminate a fetus." Yet after that you write "ask me for guidence". If the mother alone can terminate a fetus why does she have to ask God for guidence? According to this women are the masters of life and death-not God.
Even if you make the decision, you can still ask others for advice. And yes, with regard to human reproduction, women alone control it. I have no idea why God delegated that particular task to women.

No offense, but this is just logically inconsistent in the face of a all wise, all just, all loving God. If God created that fetus out of love and gave it to that person to care for and that person abuses that trust by killing that fetus how is it that God could be morally indifferent to that?

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:It also contradicts the above statement:" Do not injure or kill any human being."
My previous comment about fetus versus human being applies here as well.
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:If a fetus isn't a human being then what is it? According to scientists there exists either animals, plants, or minerals. Is that fetus, which has 23 human chromosomes from a human father and 23 chromosomes from a human mother, going to be a rock or a palm tree? No. Than it leaves only animals. Is it going to spontaneously mutate into a duck? No. It is a human being.
A fetus is an immature human body. It becomes a human being when it receives a soul which happens at a time God determines not necessarily at conception.

This is false scientific conjecture masquerading as theology. Again, how can you explain the action of the cell division without the presence of a soul?

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:The sprem and the egg combine and the process of human life begins. It is a person, while the fetus is made up of that DNA which comes of the father and of the mother, it is neither the mother, nor the father. It is not just another clump of cells. One can say humanity at its lowest common denominator is just a bunch of cells therefore what's to stop anyone from killing another for that very reason?

That fetus has it's own genetic makeup distinct from either parent.

And love requires that that person, made by God, be allowed to gow and develop into his/her fullness. If, according to your "covenant", God loves us and requires us to love each other, to claim to possess the ability to kill a person at any stage of development-from conception to natural death- must be rejected.
My previous comment about fetus versus human being applies here as well.

Again, explain how do you know there can be cell division without the presence of a soul?

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Do you mean sexual relationships?
Yes, the section you quoted from is about sex.

OK, if homosexual acts are the will of God there where else is this repeated in nature? (Please don't include some obscure story as your "proof", that would be absurd. You would have to show and entire species dedicated to such behavior and which do not posess free will.)

Messenger Wrote:
The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:Don't you agree that in a sense these passages are contradictory?
No, I don't see how the passages are even related. There is no evil one but there is evil that we (human beings) have caused. Two separate statements.

The Grey Pilgrim Wrote:I believe that evil is a result of hatred stemming from a distrust on a cosmic level. We as human beings distrust the cosmos, therefore we distrust the One who brought forth the cosmos and set us in it. We distrust others and that distrust breeds hatred and evil. But I also believe that our distrust was not a seed planted by God and is not a part of our original nature. That begs the question where did that seed of distrust come from? Do you know?
I'm just a messenger. I wrote down (as best I could) what God told me. I don't have any special knowledge beyond that.
[/quote]

Interesting.....

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."-Darth Vader
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