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No fornication allowed!
11-14-2017, 06:22 AM
Post: #181
RE: No fornication allowed!
(11-14-2017 12:56 AM)Herminator Wrote:  
(11-14-2017 12:39 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  Fornication (sex between two unmarried people) is in general risky.
Why?

Feelings get hurt, for one thing, as the short-lived tryst cracks in an argument. Precautions against sexually-transmitted disease aren’t always taken. Or, the man is rough with her, turning a hot motel evening into a date rape. Throughout the natural world, sex is fraught with danger. We hear that the mother praying mantis-to-be chews off the head of her suiter after they consummate their marriage.

I’m no prude, but yeah; some of those starchy moral warnings in the bible do have a point. I don’t believe in the notion of young people condemned to hellfire for what happened in the back seat of a car. Indeed, that brimstone’s what turned the Baby Boomer generation off to church and God. Still; if you’re in the meat market, you can get burnt. While this can happen in a long-term relationship or marriage as well, the latter do offer some risk reduction.
~ Angel
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11-14-2017, 07:22 AM
Post: #182
RE: No fornication allowed!
(11-14-2017 06:22 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  
(11-14-2017 12:56 AM)Herminator Wrote:  
(11-14-2017 12:39 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  Fornication (sex between two unmarried people) is in general risky.
Why?

Feelings get hurt, for one thing, as the short-lived tryst cracks in an argument.

With a third of marriages being disbandoned, it seems arguments not only erupt between unmarried lovers... so that's not an argument for sex being more "risky" outside of marriage.

(11-14-2017 06:22 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  Precautions against sexually-transmitted disease aren’t always taken.

Or, the man is rough with her, turning a hot motel evening into a date rape.

Throughout the natural world, sex is fraught with danger. We hear that the mother praying mantis-to-be chews off the head of her suiter after they consummate their marriage.

Ok, so you want to turn extreme incidents (STD's, date rape, cannibalism) into something that should be indicative of sex outside of marriage in general. I'm sure you know very well yourself that arguing doesn't work like that ("appeal to extremes" being the logical fallacy here).

(11-14-2017 06:22 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  I’m no prude, but yeah; some of those starchy moral warnings in the bible do have a point.

Granted, some do - that's however no reason to cling onto each and every one of those badly outdated (1000 years old!) notions.


(11-14-2017 06:22 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  if you’re in the meat market, you can get burnt.

Seriously - people dating and having sex (FYI: that's most young people) are now part of some "meat market"? This smells of appeal to extremes again.

(11-14-2017 06:22 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  While this can happen in a long-term relationship or marriage as well, the latter do offer some risk reduction.

It does, but at a price; and somewhere between (almost) zero risk, and the extremes you are painting, the correct trade off must be present.

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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11-14-2017, 05:11 PM
Post: #183
RE: No fornication allowed!
(11-14-2017 06:22 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  Feelings get hurt, for one thing, as the short-lived tryst cracks in an argument. Precautions against sexually-transmitted disease aren’t always taken. Or, the man is rough with her, turning a hot motel evening into a date rape. Throughout the natural world, sex is fraught with danger. We hear that the mother praying mantis-to-be chews off the head of her suiter after they consummate their marriage.

I’m no prude, but yeah; some of those starchy moral warnings in the bible do have a point. I don’t believe in the notion of young people condemned to hellfire for what happened in the back seat of a car. Indeed, that brimstone’s what turned the Baby Boomer generation off to church and God. Still; if you’re in the meat market, you can get burnt. While this can happen in a long-term relationship or marriage as well, the latter do offer some risk reduction.
~ Angel

The starchy warnings aren't about any of the problems you describe. The starchy warnings are either about protecting holy boundaries or protecting the property interests of men, both in property to be inherited by the man's children and the property interests in (not of, mind you) the woman.

The prohibition against seducing your cattle isn't about date rape or arguments about who makes breakfast,. but about mixing types. That's why both the human and the sexy, sexy cow must die. It's not so much about punishment as such, but about destroying what is defiled. It's the same as the laws about not mixing fabrics or eating things from the water with no scales.

The adultery rules are all about making sure a man can be sure that he sired his heirs. When Tamar pretends to be a prostitute to make a point, the only transgression that Judah was ultimately guilty of is not having his younger son marry Tamar to provide a family heir. He was ready to burn Tamar to death, though, because she was pregnant with an unknown person's child. That's not just some chauvinist double-standard, but is enforcing that a woman's sexuality belongs to her husband, primarily as a means to secure an heir.

Since we now unabashedly wear cotton-wool blends, brazenly eat catfish and remorselessly accept women as people with agency, the sex rules really have no more place in our society, either.
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11-15-2017, 12:38 AM (This post was last modified: 11-15-2017 12:52 AM by Amememhab.)
Post: #184
Shy RE: No fornication allowed!
(11-14-2017 05:11 PM)Difflugia Wrote:  The adultery rules are all about making sure a man can be sure that he sired his heirs.

Dearest flowing Diffluge, my post said zilch about laws on adultery (sex with married person not the spouse or by married person with other than spouse) or fornication (sex between two unmarried persons). Yup. You’re right. Those rules sucked, as they were so unfair to the ladies. Men, greedy of gold coins, have owned most of the wealth, in biblical times and even now. Why, she was often stoned to death after unmarried sex! In John 8:7, Jesus must step in to rescue a woman from the rocks of a self-righteous gaggle spewing sour hate at her, murder in their hearts, by convicting them of wrongdoing in those their own hearts. Jesus said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” And the men all filed away, faces down, pomp and circumstance evaporated.

Men got off the hook, deathwise, as a shotgun marriage with the adulteress—who might well be an innocent rape victim not in sexual sin—was the worst penalty the guy faced. Financial penalty, yes, and severe, if he was of modest means. But death under a hail of dolomite chunks? No. The spiritual ailment driving this phenomenon sickens the withering Amememhab, as I see evil a rampant leopard in our world. But I’m so glad Jesus stopped them sons of B that day.

Fortunately, America has managed to down such rules: miscegenation (mixed-race marriage, by Supreme Court, Loving v. Virginia, 1967), denial of welfare to unmarried women (Alabama, AFDC regulations, struck 1960). Good riddance! I pray most days my beloved nation continue to learn better-informed sociality, not to fall farther into Satan’s designs for a misogynous world bruising the women’s eyes, blackening the soul of the gentleman who perpetrates.

I love that you pointed out the unfairness of those rules. Yet still, as I told Herminator, sex is dangerous. When doing it, exercise caution, and love your partner. Let God guide us, prairie to ocean. Also thanks to you for pointing out Tamar the ravished woman: “Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep” (Genesis 38:13). What poisonous hate aimed at entire groups of humanity we must endure in this life! “And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more” (38:26). Uparoo! He learnt his lesson, with his own daughter-in-law.

Recall Judah’s wife had passed into death (Genesis 38:12), and Judah was afraid he would die, too. For we humans one and all fear the grinning skull of the Reaper! And Onan refused to give his brother a child, motivating him to take another woman. Not a simple story here. That’s why our congress to trade genes for a successor generation is so fraught.

“God Bless America”
YouTube
https://youtu.be/UMdkcTmPS2U

Tamar’s sex of Genesis 38.
– He was more culpable than she. “But in that culture women had no standing and no recourse when they were mistreated.”
Larry Eubanks
http://larryeubanks.com/tamar-and-being-...-adultery/
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11-15-2017, 02:04 AM
Post: #185
RE: No fornication allowed!
(11-15-2017 12:38 AM)Amememhab Wrote:  When doing it, exercise caution, and love your partner.

Unless you mean "love your neighbor as yourself," why such a high bar? I like roller coasters and have sometimes enjoyed riding one with a stranger. If someone doesn't want to ride with me, though, I won't disrespect them by trying to convince them to go anyway.
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11-15-2017, 08:37 AM
Post: #186
RE: No fornication allowed!
(11-15-2017 02:04 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  ...why such a high bar? I like roller coasters and have sometimes enjoyed riding one with a stranger...

Why such a high bar, Difflugia? Because Christ Jesus wanted us to strive for gentility, kindness toward our fellows. Yeah. We can’t do it; we can’t hurdle this pole-vault bar. Yet Jesus asked only that we try to do so, to the best of our ability. He knows our limitations as human beings, for he was once a man, preaching in Galilee, going up to Jerusalem, hosannas on Saturday or Sunday and a public, excruciating, painful death nailed to a cross the next Friday. What a way to go, to deliver a message of benefit to all humankind:

“Love thy neighbor as thyself” (Matthew 19:19). And love the Lord thy God. Does Satyros the heathen polytheist of Norse gods do so? Yeah. I think so, from what I’ve seen on his YouTube channel and his posts here. He worships my One God, and I revere his Many Gods, even if neither of us realizes the fact. Fist-pounding fundamentalist Christians telling us we’re all going to hell err when they deny this truth. For they are all on hate, sin, and death, forgetting God has also given us life.

When we crash through the bar on our jump, bar and us falling to the mat, missing the points, God will forgive our imperfection—because we gave it the college try.

I hate to say this, Difflugia, but we ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, so in life we shall witness the full range of good and evil, from our joy at Lego bricks when boy to sadness at bloodstains and 9mm shell casings on asphalt when man. It’s not an easy life we’re born into, friend. As I get older, aging steadily toward my meeting with Death, I see through that glass better, even if darkly (1Corinthinas 13:12), I’m only 16½ years from my biblical threescore and ten.

You didn’t state your age on this forum, Difflugia, and I don’t blame you with all the identity thieves on the prowl today. Yet no matter your current age, you are aging toward Death. Grinnneth he in his skeleton, his teeth shining bright in reflected sun, his demons Ignorance, Terror, Pain, Decay in chariots alongside his, riding you down. Look over your shoulder, and behold! There is no escape for you, nor for any other human being. You’re gonna die, with nothing you can do about it. I’m 53½ years old. I feel Death; I see him, with his army of smelly orcs, coming at me. And I, poor Amememhab, am helpless against the reality. I’m a frightened bunny rabbit in a hawk’s baleful gaze!

I do hope God blesses you. I try to pray constantly, to quash my ego, what I think I know. I know very little, and we walk a tiny blue jewel of life in universe of galaxies. And by all means, ride Lakeside Denver’s roller coaster with a human being you’ve never seen before that day. Say “hello” to that person at the coaster’s terminal stop. We’re all on the ride, Difflugia, and we’re mortal. We’re higher than angels in God’s eyes, for we, but no angel, knows what it’s like to face sin and death throughout our lives. Humans, not angels, will have chances to wear a crown, judging the world, in the afterlife.

“For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?” (Thessalonians 2:19). Be ready. He’s indeed coming.
~ Angel
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