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Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
02-17-2010, 04:59 PM
Post: #1
Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
Challenge to Muslims:

How can a man speak for women? How can an Arab man speak for the spiritual wisdom of non-Arabs? If one were in court giving testimony about the way another person thinks it is thrown out as "hearsay" and inadmissible evidence. This is logical because human beings as separate individuals are not privy to the thoughts and ideas of others. If we were we would be a mind-reading species and we obviously are not. Science too, never takes a single scientists ideas as proof of his work but tests the ideas against other people's experience and judgments.

Not so with Muslims with their adoration of Muhammad and his book. Muslims seem to think a man can speak for all men, for all women, for different spiritual traditions he knows zero about, and speak with such authority that his ideas about other men's beliefs, about women, about other cultures, outweigh the opinions and beliefs of these people he knows virtually nothing about except the slimmest of ancient and often very wrong ideas contained in ancient knowledge.

So, again, I ask Muslims how can Muhammad speak for women when he isn't a woman and even calls Allah, "he"? How can Muhammad speak for Native American spiritual wisdom when he doesn't know a thing about it nor does he know a thing about thousands of other ways human societies relate to God and the world. In short, leaving one's entire thinking about society and God in the hands of one person is illogical and when such myopic views of human beings and the world are acted upon is a sure road to irrational and inappropriate behavior.
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02-18-2010, 09:13 AM
Post: #2
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
No response (again) from Muslims. One has to assume Muslims are afraid to face serious questions about their religious beliefs which can only mean their beliefs are too weak to withstand scrutiny.
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02-18-2010, 09:29 AM
Post: #3
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
It is obvious that the Muslims here believe in Mohammad's strategy that the best defense is a good offense. Just ignore the problems in their own camp, and remain on the attack against the erroneously imputed "beliefs" that they impose on others.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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02-18-2010, 09:33 AM
Post: #4
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
Oh unfair. You know that Ahmadi can't draw his scimitar, and you attack him.
Shame on you. Shame....................The Profit would not approve
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05-03-2010, 08:33 AM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2010 09:34 AM by muslim girl.)
Post: #5
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
How can a man speak for women?
Not man speaks about women Allah who create women speak about them by a massage sent by Mohammed peace on him
how can an Arab man speak for the spiritual wisdom of non-Arabs?
Not an Arab man, Allah who create non Arabs, speak about them, and send to them massage by Mohammed
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05-03-2010, 03:44 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2010 03:45 PM by biomystic.)
Post: #6
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
(05-03-2010 08:33 AM)muslim girl Wrote:  How can a man speak for women?
Not man speaks about women Allah who create women speak about them by a massage sent by Mohammed peace on him
how can an Arab man speak for the spiritual wisdom of non-Arabs?
Not an Arab man, Allah who create non Arabs, speak about them, and send to them massage by Mohammed

The messenger was a man and spoke as a man would through his cultural conditioning. God is more than any man and God's voice is actually everywhere but Abrahamic believers have been conditioned to look only to men as spiritual authorities--so we have Allah written as a if Allah were a man, we get an Islam where a man's fighting to establish territorial control is reinforced by the male messenger of the male Allah, we hear nothing of the softer feminine voice that counsels peace and lovingkindness and non-violence. In short, no man can convey God's fullness which includes women, children, all of Life.

If science were stopped at one scientist's discoveries and no future scientists were allowed to add their contributions to knowledge, science would not be science and would never progress beyond the one man's knowledge. Yet when this principle is applied to leaders of religions the logic breaks down in favor of using religions like security blankets of babies and toddlers who cannot be comfortable without them.
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05-05-2010, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2010 06:02 PM by tugrul.)
Post: #7
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
(02-17-2010 04:59 PM)biomystic Wrote:  Challenge to Muslims:

How can a man speak for women? How can an Arab man speak for the spiritual wisdom of non-Arabs? If one were in court giving testimony about the way another person thinks it is thrown out as "hearsay" and inadmissible evidence. This is logical because human beings as separate individuals are not privy to the thoughts and ideas of others. If we were we would be a mind-reading species and we obviously are not. Science too, never takes a single scientists ideas as proof of his work but tests the ideas against other people's experience and judgments.

Not so with Muslims with their adoration of Muhammad and his book. Muslims seem to think a man can speak for all men, for all women, for different spiritual traditions he knows zero about, and speak with such authority that his ideas about other men's beliefs, about women, about other cultures, outweigh the opinions and beliefs of these people he knows virtually nothing about except the slimmest of ancient and often very wrong ideas contained in ancient knowledge.

So, again, I ask Muslims how can Muhammad speak for women when he isn't a woman and even calls Allah, "he"? How can Muhammad speak for Native American spiritual wisdom when he doesn't know a thing about it nor does he know a thing about thousands of other ways human societies relate to God and the world. In short, leaving one's entire thinking about society and God in the hands of one person is illogical and when such myopic views of human beings and the world are acted upon is a sure road to irrational and inappropriate behavior.

Let's try to answer all these questions one by one. It is a fact that such questions selected, are like, asking a question of derivatives to a mathematician where mathematician knows all the steps and background to answer such derivative question but the question asker does not even know addition! So answering such a derivative question to a primary school student is for sure very hard. But let's try. May Allah help and He is the only one knows the truth.

A man does not speak for women in Quran. Allah speaks to all humanity either man or woman. In some verses Allah tells Muhammed what to do and how to do and what to say. In some verses Allah talks directly to infidels, in some verses to believers etc. So the words are belong to a personality called Allah.

Nations mean nothing for Quran as It is a universal book for all nations. In Quran (49,13 ) Allah says that : "O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing,
Aware."


So as you can easily see Quran is not the Book of Arabs or Arabic culture but it is a Book for all nations and mercy for the universe. The higher rank is the one whose belief is stronger regardless of from which tribe s/he is from. That is why from Balkans to Indonesia Muslims are all over and a historical information, that is why nomad tribes, Turks, converted into Islam and carried the flag of Islam for nearly 1000 years. Were they Arabs? No.

In Quran you can find many ideas and old stories of ancient tribes. They are all included in Quran so It is not a book of only one culture, for sure.

Muslims never adore to Muhammed (S.A.V.) We adore only one Allah. This is totally a false idea and even in Quran it is mentioned in many verses that Muhammed is just a human being. And Quran is not Muhammed's book. It is 100% words of Allah and if by saying Quran as Muhammed's book, you mean he believed that It is 100% Allah's words, again you are wrong. All Muslims believe that It is 100% Allah's words.

By saying that Quran knows zero about this and that, you have to give examples. Such general personal ideas are not basis for a debate. If you are claiming something it is you who has to show with clues. This is the scientific method. If you care of course.

Allah of course has no sex. Allah is called he in Arabic due to the article to be used for Allah. In German door is "die Tür". So let's criticize Germans how can the door can be female. In my mother tongue we do not use articles before words and for our language Allah is It. If you had known just the basic rules of mathematics, the idea of Quran, you would not ask such a question but i understand you 100%. You need to read and learn. You will insallah.
(02-17-2010 04:59 PM)biomystic Wrote:  Challenge to Muslims:

How can a man speak for women? How can an Arab man speak for the spiritual wisdom of non-Arabs? If one were in court giving testimony about the way another person thinks it is thrown out as "hearsay" and inadmissible evidence. This is logical because human beings as separate individuals are not privy to the thoughts and ideas of others. If we were we would be a mind-reading species and we obviously are not. Science too, never takes a single scientists ideas as proof of his work but tests the ideas against other people's experience and judgments.

Not so with Muslims with their adoration of Muhammad and his book. Muslims seem to think a man can speak for all men, for all women, for different spiritual traditions he knows zero about, and speak with such authority that his ideas about other men's beliefs, about women, about other cultures, outweigh the opinions and beliefs of these people he knows virtually nothing about except the slimmest of ancient and often very wrong ideas contained in ancient knowledge.

So, again, I ask Muslims how can Muhammad speak for women when he isn't a woman and even calls Allah, "he"? How can Muhammad speak for Native American spiritual wisdom when he doesn't know a thing about it nor does he know a thing about thousands of other ways human societies relate to God and the world. In short, leaving one's entire thinking about society and God in the hands of one person is illogical and when such myopic views of human beings and the world are acted upon is a sure road to irrational and inappropriate behavior.

...continued.

Allah has sent hundreds of thousands of prophets to all nations and all of them had carried the words of Allah. So if the source is the same for all, what is your question? The question that Muhammed had no idea about other tribes is out of question. The true question should be How does Allah know about all other tribes and nations, keeping in mind that Allah had sent hundreds of thousands of prophets to all nations? And my friend, it is really pages of pages to tell you how Allah knows about all these tribes because first of all you have to know about Allah and if even you can understand 1% of what i understood and what i understood is not even a mathematical figure of the reality i am sure, you would never think of such question. Believe me.
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05-06-2010, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 05-06-2010 11:47 AM by muslim girl.)
Post: #8
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
The messenger was a man and spoke as a man would through his cultural conditioning.
Islam is not what he speak, Islam is what he carries
God is more than any man and God's voice is actually everywhere but Abraham believers have been conditioned to look only to men as spiritual authorities--so we have Allah written as a if Allah were a man,
It an Arabic language structure, moon is "he". Sun is "she", we do not have it, we give non human things he or she, we give angels "she"
We get an Islam where a man's fighting to establish territorial control is reinforced by the male messenger of the male Allah,
Not male Allah
We hear nothing of the softer feminine voice that counsels peace and loving-kindness and non-violence. In short,
No man can convey God's fullness which includes women, children, all of Life.
He do he convey Allah word by letter


If science were stopped at one scientist's discoveries and no future scientists were allowed to add their contributions to knowledge, science would not be science and would never progress beyond the one man's knowledge.
But if scientist decide to change principle and to change that 1+1=2
That is the most stupid thing
It will not be science
There are principles of human thinking, doings and saying it should not be change

Yet when this principle is applied to leaders of religions the logic breaks down in favor of using religions like security blankets of babies and toddlers who cannot be comfortable without them.
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05-08-2010, 03:42 PM
Post: #9
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
(05-06-2010 11:45 AM)muslim girl Wrote:  The messenger was a man and spoke as a man would through his cultural conditioning.
Islam is not what he speak, Islam is what he carries
God is more than any man and God's voice is actually everywhere but Abraham believers have been conditioned to look only to men as spiritual authorities--so we have Allah written as a if Allah were a man,
It an Arabic language structure, moon is "he". Sun is "she", we do not have it, we give non human things he or she, we give angels "she"
We get an Islam where a man's fighting to establish territorial control is reinforced by the male messenger of the male Allah,
Not male Allah
We hear nothing of the softer feminine voice that counsels peace and loving-kindness and non-violence. In short,
No man can convey God's fullness which includes women, children, all of Life.
He do he convey Allah word by letter


If science were stopped at one scientist's discoveries and no future scientists were allowed to add their contributions to knowledge, science would not be science and would never progress beyond the one man's knowledge.
But if scientist decide to change principle and to change that 1+1=2
That is the most stupid thing
It will not be science
There are principles of human thinking, doings and saying it should not be change

Yet when this principle is applied to leaders of religions the logic breaks down in favor of using religions like security blankets of babies and toddlers who cannot be comfortable without them.

There are no scientific principles in Muhammad's book. There are platitudes about Allah, life, human beings, and warnings to believer or else face hellfire. When you give authority to ancient men's ideas you stop God from speaking to you directly because you won't hear it. You hear only Muhammad's ideas. Again, if science operated on this principle of stopping ideas at a certain point in time and never questioning them, then the knowledge base of humanity would still be at the ancient men's level, never advancing with new ideas. God is God of the living, not the dead still is the spiritual truth not found in Muhammad's book.
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05-09-2010, 01:30 AM
Post: #10
RE: Nonsensical "logic" of Muslim belief in the infallibility of the Quran
UR words full of contradictions, may be that result from not understanding of what they replied u?
so, i'll try to simplify the matter for u...Mohamed is just a messenger like all whom be sent by The Creator, and he didn't talk of his own- like all prophets- teachings that he brought to men and women r all from The Creator to show ppl the right way in this life!
Muhamed was not a philosopher or any thing like that , he was illiterate though he came with a book which astonished the illiterate arab who r masters in eloquence, and Allah defied them to bring a verse like one in the Quran, they couldn't!!!
Allah support every prophet He sent with a miracle that his ppl r professional in it, to know that is not human done!..for example to clear the matter....Moses came with his stick which converted to be a snake devour all snakes the magician did....hence, the magician knew it is not a human made, the man should supported by The Real God!
also Jesus came with a miracle like getting dead ppl to life again coz his ppl were proffisional in medicine, to inform them that he is supported by God!
and so, the arab were professional in eloquence which Quran made them reply with no word about it!
since the Creator is one for arab and non arab, for white and black which they all came from Adam and Eve, then Allah know best how to show His creation the right way, otherwise can u tell me how non arab including women- in ur west- convert to Islam if it is not valid to ur traditions as u claim??????????????????????

For every evil under the sun, there is a remedy or there is non.
if there's one, try to find it. if there's none, never mind it!
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