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ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
05-15-2010, 10:16 PM (This post was last modified: 05-15-2010 10:17 PM by prdamico.)
Post: #1
ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
READ.


The Sumerians never called the Anunnaki, 'gods.' They were called din.gir, a two-syllable word. 'Din' meant 'righteous, pure, bright;' 'gir' was a term used to describe a sharp-edged object. As an epithet for the Anunnaki 'dingir' meant 'righteous ones of the bright pointed objects.'

Sumerian texts break up history into two epochs divided by the Great Deluge - the Biblical Flood. After the waters receded the great Anunnaki who decree the fate decided that the gods were too lofty for mankind. The term used - 'elu' in Akkadian - means exactly that: 'Lofty Ones;' from it comes the Babylonian, Assyrian, Hebrew, and Ugaritic El - the term to which the Greeks gave the connotation 'god'.

( EL remember him, YAHWEH was his son )


HUH ?

those pesky Sumerians again..........???? :-)



READING is Fundamental.......



:-)
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05-25-2010, 02:57 PM
Post: #2
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
Howdy.

Can you cite a source for your statement that El was the father of YHWH? It's been a few years since I've been in the classroom, but I thought that critical scholarship divided the Jewish scriptures into two different source materials that were later edited together. One source, the older material, used Elohim as it's deity. Later material came from YHWHist authors and editors. There are places where Sumerian material was incorporated (such as the Tehillim), but it was either polemicised or changed to fit Jewish beliefs.

And assuming you are correct, what point are you trying to make by tying Hebrew and Greek views to the Sumerians?

-malleus
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05-25-2010, 06:08 PM
Post: #3
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
There is a Canaanite cuniform text wherein EL renames Yamm as Yah or Yahwe. Since Yamm's eternal enemy seems to be Baal with Yahweh continuing Yamm's emity into the Abrahamic traditions, and since the tribe of Benjamin controlling Jerusalem really meant "Sons of Yamm" it seems correct to assume Yahweh, then YHWH, was the Jewish extrapolation of Yamm who finally got to overthrow EL and subsume God Most High into Yahweh's characteristics. This deicide of God Most High goes unnoticed in Abrahamic faiths because most Abrahamics have little if any knowledge of earlier pagan religions in Canaan or Sumeria for that matter from which Abrahamic religious ideas derived.
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05-25-2010, 07:28 PM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2010 07:32 PM by prdamico.)
Post: #4
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
(05-25-2010 02:57 PM)malleus Wrote:  Howdy.

Can you cite a source for your statement that El was the father of YHWH?
-malleus

YES HERE IS YOUR SOURCE


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29

he apparent plural form ’Ēlîm or ’Ēlim 'gods' occurs only four times in the Tanakh. Psalm 29, understood as an enthronement psalm, begins:

A Psalm of David.
Ascribe to Yahweh, sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm),
Ascribe to Yahweh, glory and strength

Psalm 89:6 (verse 7 in Hebrew) has:

For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm).

Traditionally bênê ’ēlîm has been interpreted as 'sons of the mighty', 'mighty ones', for, indeed ’ēl can mean 'mighty', though such use may be metaphorical (compare the English expression God-awful). It is possible also that the expression ’ēlîm in both places descends from an archaic stock phrase in which ’lm was a singular form with the m-enclitic and therefore to be translated as 'sons of Ēl'. The m-enclitic appears elsewhere in the Tanakh and in other Semitic languages. Its meaning is unknown, possibly simply emphasis. It appears in similar contexts in Ugaritic texts where the expression bn ’il alternates with bn ’ilm, but both must mean 'sons of Ēl'. That phrase with m-enclictic also appears in Phoenician inscriptions as late as the 5th century BCE.

One of the other two occurrences in the Tanakh is in the "Song of Moses", Exodus 15.11a:

Who is like you among the gods (’ēlim), Yahweh?

The final occurrence is in Daniel 11.36:

And the king will do according to his pleasure; and he will exalt himself and magnify himself over every god (’ēl), and against the God of gods (’ēl ’ēlîm) he will speak outrageous things, and will prosper until the indignation is accomplished: for that which is decided will be done.

There are a few cases in the Tanakh where some think ’ēl referring to the great god Ēl is not equated with Yahweh. One is in Ezekiel 28.2, in the taunt against a man who claims to be divine, in this instance, the leader of Tyre:

Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: "Thus says the Lord Yahweh: 'Because your heart is proud and you have said: "I am ’ēl (God), in the seat of ’elōhîm (God or gods), I am enthroned in the middle of the seas." Yet you are man and not ’ēl even though you have made your heart like the heart of ’elōhîm ('God' or 'gods').'"

Here ’ēl might refer to a generic god, or to a highest god, Ēl. When viewed as applying to the King of Tyre specifically, the king was probably not thinking of Yahweh. When viewed a general taunt against anyone making divine claims, it may or may not refer to Yahweh depending on the context.

In Judges 9.46 we find ’Ēl Bêrît 'God of the Covenant', seemingly the same as the Ba‘al Bêrît 'Lord of the Covenant' whose worship has been condemned a few verses earlier. See Baal for a discussion of this passage.

Psalm 82.1 says:

’elōhîm ('God') stands in the council of ’ēl
he judges among the gods (elohim).

This could mean that God, that is Yahweh, judges along with many other gods as one of the council of the high god Ēl. However it can also mean that God, that is Yahweh, stands in the divine council (generally known as the Council of Ēl), as Ēl judging among the other members of the Council. The following verses in which God condemns those whom he says were previously named gods (elohim) and sons of the Most High suggest God is here indeed Ēl judging the lesser gods.
:-)
(05-25-2010 06:08 PM)biomystic Wrote:  There is a Canaanite cuniform text wherein EL renames Yamm as Yah or Yahwe. Since Yamm's eternal enemy seems to be Baal with Yahweh continuing Yamm's emity into the Abrahamic traditions, and since the tribe of Benjamin controlling Jerusalem really meant "Sons of Yamm" it seems correct to assume Yahweh, then YHWH, was the Jewish extrapolation of Yamm who finally got to overthrow EL and subsume God Most High into Yahweh's characteristics. This deicide of God Most High goes unnoticed in Abrahamic faiths because most Abrahamics have little if any knowledge of earlier pagan religions in Canaan or Sumeria for that matter from which Abrahamic religious ideas derived.

Yes you might be right about Yamm,

but EITHER was it is CLEAR that

JUDIASM was Polytheistic until around 600 PC, not monotheistic


:-)
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05-25-2010, 07:33 PM
Post: #5
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
(05-25-2010 07:28 PM)prdamico Wrote:  
(05-25-2010 02:57 PM)malleus Wrote:  Howdy.

Can you cite a source for your statement that El was the father of YHWH?
-malleus

YES HERE IS YOUR SOURCE


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29

he apparent plural form ’Ēlîm or ’Ēlim 'gods' occurs only four times in the Tanakh. Psalm 29, understood as an enthronement psalm, begins:

A Psalm of David.
Ascribe to Yahweh, sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm),
Ascribe to Yahweh, glory and strength

Psalm 89:6 (verse 7 in Hebrew) has:

For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm).

Traditionally bênê ’ēlîm has been interpreted as 'sons of the mighty', 'mighty ones', for, indeed ’ēl can mean 'mighty', though such use may be metaphorical (compare the English expression God-awful). It is possible also that the expression ’ēlîm in both places descends from an archaic stock phrase in which ’lm was a singular form with the m-enclitic and therefore to be translated as 'sons of Ēl'. The m-enclitic appears elsewhere in the Tanakh and in other Semitic languages. Its meaning is unknown, possibly simply emphasis. It appears in similar contexts in Ugaritic texts where the expression bn ’il alternates with bn ’ilm, but both must mean 'sons of Ēl'. That phrase with m-enclictic also appears in Phoenician inscriptions as late as the 5th century BCE.

One of the other two occurrences in the Tanakh is in the "Song of Moses", Exodus 15.11a:

Who is like you among the gods (’ēlim), Yahweh?

The final occurrence is in Daniel 11.36:

And the king will do according to his pleasure; and he will exalt himself and magnify himself over every god (’ēl), and against the God of gods (’ēl ’ēlîm) he will speak outrageous things, and will prosper until the indignation is accomplished: for that which is decided will be done.

There are a few cases in the Tanakh where some think ’ēl referring to the great god Ēl is not equated with Yahweh. One is in Ezekiel 28.2, in the taunt against a man who claims to be divine, in this instance, the leader of Tyre:

Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: "Thus says the Lord Yahweh: 'Because your heart is proud and you have said: "I am ’ēl (God), in the seat of ’elōhîm (God or gods), I am enthroned in the middle of the seas." Yet you are man and not ’ēl even though you have made your heart like the heart of ’elōhîm ('God' or 'gods').'"

Here ’ēl might refer to a generic god, or to a highest god, Ēl. When viewed as applying to the King of Tyre specifically, the king was probably not thinking of Yahweh. When viewed a general taunt against anyone making divine claims, it may or may not refer to Yahweh depending on the context.

In Judges 9.46 we find ’Ēl Bêrît 'God of the Covenant', seemingly the same as the Ba‘al Bêrît 'Lord of the Covenant' whose worship has been condemned a few verses earlier. See Baal for a discussion of this passage.

Psalm 82.1 says:

’elōhîm ('God') stands in the council of ’ēl
he judges among the gods (elohim).

This could mean that God, that is Yahweh, judges along with many other gods as one of the council of the high god Ēl. However it can also mean that God, that is Yahweh, stands in the divine council (generally known as the Council of Ēl), as Ēl judging among the other members of the Council. The following verses in which God condemns those whom he says were previously named gods (elohim) and sons of the Most High suggest God is here indeed Ēl judging the lesser gods.
:-)

You're seriously using WIKIPEDIA as a source? You just lost any and all credibility on historical subjects.

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05-25-2010, 07:48 PM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2010 07:51 PM by prdamico.)
Post: #6
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
(05-25-2010 07:33 PM)Clementine Wrote:  
(05-25-2010 07:28 PM)prdamico Wrote:  
(05-25-2010 02:57 PM)malleus Wrote:  Howdy.

Can you cite a source for your statement that El was the father of YHWH?
-malleus

YES HERE IS YOUR SOURCE


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29

he apparent plural form ’Ēlîm or ’Ēlim 'gods' occurs only four times in the Tanakh. Psalm 29, understood as an enthronement psalm, begins:

A Psalm of David.
Ascribe to Yahweh, sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm),
Ascribe to Yahweh, glory and strength

Psalm 89:6 (verse 7 in Hebrew) has:

For who in the skies compares to Yahweh,
who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods (bênê ’Ēlîm).

Traditionally bênê ’ēlîm has been interpreted as 'sons of the mighty', 'mighty ones', for, indeed ’ēl can mean 'mighty', though such use may be metaphorical (compare the English expression God-awful). It is possible also that the expression ’ēlîm in both places descends from an archaic stock phrase in which ’lm was a singular form with the m-enclitic and therefore to be translated as 'sons of Ēl'. The m-enclitic appears elsewhere in the Tanakh and in other Semitic languages. Its meaning is unknown, possibly simply emphasis. It appears in similar contexts in Ugaritic texts where the expression bn ’il alternates with bn ’ilm, but both must mean 'sons of Ēl'. That phrase with m-enclictic also appears in Phoenician inscriptions as late as the 5th century BCE.

One of the other two occurrences in the Tanakh is in the "Song of Moses", Exodus 15.11a:

Who is like you among the gods (’ēlim), Yahweh?

The final occurrence is in Daniel 11.36:

And the king will do according to his pleasure; and he will exalt himself and magnify himself over every god (’ēl), and against the God of gods (’ēl ’ēlîm) he will speak outrageous things, and will prosper until the indignation is accomplished: for that which is decided will be done.

There are a few cases in the Tanakh where some think ’ēl referring to the great god Ēl is not equated with Yahweh. One is in Ezekiel 28.2, in the taunt against a man who claims to be divine, in this instance, the leader of Tyre:

Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: "Thus says the Lord Yahweh: 'Because your heart is proud and you have said: "I am ’ēl (God), in the seat of ’elōhîm (God or gods), I am enthroned in the middle of the seas." Yet you are man and not ’ēl even though you have made your heart like the heart of ’elōhîm ('God' or 'gods').'"

Here ’ēl might refer to a generic god, or to a highest god, Ēl. When viewed as applying to the King of Tyre specifically, the king was probably not thinking of Yahweh. When viewed a general taunt against anyone making divine claims, it may or may not refer to Yahweh depending on the context.

In Judges 9.46 we find ’Ēl Bêrît 'God of the Covenant', seemingly the same as the Ba‘al Bêrît 'Lord of the Covenant' whose worship has been condemned a few verses earlier. See Baal for a discussion of this passage.

Psalm 82.1 says:

’elōhîm ('God') stands in the council of ’ēl
he judges among the gods (elohim).

This could mean that God, that is Yahweh, judges along with many other gods as one of the council of the high god Ēl. However it can also mean that God, that is Yahweh, stands in the divine council (generally known as the Council of Ēl), as Ēl judging among the other members of the Council. The following verses in which God condemns those whom he says were previously named gods (elohim) and sons of the Most High suggest God is here indeed Ēl judging the lesser gods.
:-)

You're seriously using WIKIPEDIA as a source? You just lost any and all credibility on historical subjects.


ANY INFO IN WIKIPEDIA CAN BE GOOGLED AND CHECKED OUT

WOULD YOU PREFER I USE BRITANNICA ?? anyone with any intelligence can cross reference anything on wikipedia

READ THE SUMERIAN CUNEFORM TEXTS, BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH

SHEEP

BBBBAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

good little sheep
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05-26-2010, 04:54 AM
Post: #7
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
Howdy prdamico, biomystic,

A single text does not define the evolution of a deity. In the Tehillim, the "sky" psalms were often borrowed from Ugaritic hymns, but used either to polemicize against the deities of other nations, or incorporated the material into the worship of YHWH. Why not just assume that the cuneiform tablet is merely returning the favor? Why put so much weight on that particular text?

And the wikipedia article has two problems for me: one, Biblical Hebrew is tricky, particularly when it comes to the use of plural. Context is key, and there are a lot of people who like to come up with crazy theories about polytheism in the Jewish texts because of the use of plural. In Genesis, the first three words in Hebrew are "Beresheet Elohim barah..." While Elohim is plural, "barah" is singular. So context makes it clear that Elohim is plural for some other reason than defining a plurality of deities creating the world. Two, the assertions of the article are best explained by the generally-accepted view that there were two texts: a YHWHist text and an Elohist text, and they were edited together over time.

There's no question that monotheism came from polytheism (though early Judaism is best described as a form of tribal "political" henotheism). This likelihood does not inherently make monotheism a bad idea, or in some way less than polytheism. To give you an analogy: would you rather drive a '83 Honda Civic, or a '08 Honda Civic? Personally, I'd rather have the '08 because a lot of innovation has happened in that amount of time.

But still, assuming that what the two of you are saying is correct, what does that mean? What are the implications of YHWH being a development from Canaanite deities?
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05-26-2010, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2010 02:39 PM by biomystic.)
Post: #8
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
The truth will set you free. If Abrahamic religionists are forced to concede that much if not most of Abrahamic religious ideas and forms are borrowed from pagan polytheism without attribution, then perhaps Abrahamic religionists will be stopped from inflicting by force of arms ancient political rivalries into the modern era. Science findings stopped a lot of religious persecution and now we need historical science to put Abrahamic beliefs and believers into their historical contexts and stop this very foolish business of allowing existing Abrahamic religions free reign in the political world to wreak their ancient male territorial battle plans onto the rest of the world, e.g. modern Jews using the promise of God to Abraham and Abraham's Hebrew offsprings (not those Arab ones!) to fuel the idea of Eretz Israel and Zionism. Likewise, we can tell Muslims and Pauline Christians to take their dreams of world conquest to the same place Alexander, Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, and Mao Zadong led their world conquest dreams in the end and stop letting ambitious men, even from the grave rule modern world politics.

On a personal visionary note, I am bringing warning that God has disowned the monotheistic madness that is so intolerant of how people perceive and worship the Goodness of God which can come to anyone anywhere on earth despite labels and cultures. Goodness is of God and should be honored wherever and however it is found.
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05-26-2010, 03:13 PM
Post: #9
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
(05-26-2010 02:38 PM)biomystic Wrote:  The truth will set you free. If Abrahamic religionists are forced to concede that much if not most of Abrahamic religious ideas and forms are borrowed from pagan polytheism without attribution, then perhaps Abrahamic religionists will be stopped from inflicting by force of arms ancient political rivalries into the modern era.

Perhaps. But can we agree that the tendency towards violence is not a rational pursuit? One cannot reason with madness in any form. And polytheists are just as capable of all of the diseases of monotheism as well. Who would like to go back to the Pax Romana?

My fear is if you and others were capable of getting Judeo-Christian-Islamic monotheists to concede to the evidence, all you would end up with would be a Nietzschean dialectic of power. Those who were oppressed by those formerly in power would become oppressors themselves in the name of correcting past evils. I truly hope there is another way besides the "us against them" paradigm.

(05-26-2010 02:38 PM)biomystic Wrote:  Goodness is of God and should be honored wherever and however it is found.

Smile
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05-26-2010, 09:27 PM
Post: #10
RE: ORIGIN OF THE WORD GOD
Promoting individualized spirituality vs. joining organized religions is another way to defeat Abrahamic religious madness. This is the Gnostic Solitary Path but you're right about a power vacuum created into which more territorial battles would arise. I am in the position of carrying through these religious visions the Creator gives me and seeing what if anything special happens because of them. Right now, the Paxcalibur vision has established a tiny track record of influencing several hundred Palestinian and Israel Arab Christians who have seen it. It remains to be seen though if the spiritual power of the image of Paxcalibur is universal, more so than any of the other religious icons that identify people's religious uniforms. Without biology knowledge of male territoriality taught in schools and colleges it will be hard to convince people of the necessity of paying attention to how we humans construct these male dominated hierarchies of social power and how they are maintained despite harm they cause because males just do that, instinctively, compete for territory, you can easily see it in operation here on these boards.

It's too bad fundies don't usually have any sense of humor about seeing the absurdities in their beliefs. I mean here I have my Babbi items of authority, yarmulke and all a Babbi needs (think a cross between a rabbi and a baboon..) and still no one is sending donations for my Crystal Cathedral and Casino Church..Why didn't God tell me to start a church or ashram and where's my hundred Rolls-Royces and adoring acolytes?

(sigh..)

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