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Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
02-07-2018, 10:59 PM
Post: #1
Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
I'll give rstrats his thread back.

(02-07-2018 05:01 PM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  I copied the following paragraph a number of years ago, but I don't remember from where.

The Trumpet, March 2010

(02-07-2018 05:01 PM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  "Begin by reading The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram-Green. Look up the Greek word numbered by Strong’s as 4521 and translated as “sabbath” in Matthew 28:1 (King James Version). This publication uses a “note” to delineate whether the word is singular or plural in its original form. There are several plural forms indicated by the note; however, pay particular attention to Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2; John 20:1, 19.

Each of those usages is a plural form of the word sabbath; each should have been translated “sabbaths.” To verify this, check each of these verses in The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton. You will find that each uses the plural word “sabbaths” rather than the mistranslation in the singular. By leaving off the “s” to reflect the plural of the word sabbath, a very subtle deception is started."

It's a plural, but also genitive (or possessive), so "σαββάτων" and "τῶν σαββάτων" mean "of sabbaths" and "of the sabbaths" respectively. That itself doesn't completely invalidate the point, but it does mean that the phrase in the verses above wouldn't reasonably be translated the way Fenton or the article's author would like.

The phrase in Mark, John and Luke 24:1 is "τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων", literally "on the first of the sabbaths". Most Bibles translate it as "on the first [day] of the week". Fenton translates it as "the first [day following] the Sabbaths". The "day" is only assumed because they're translating "σαββάτων" as week and it makes no sense to imply "following". If the Bible's really referring to multiple sabbaths, then the phrase should read "on the first of the Sabbaths". That doesn't make sense in context, hence the "first of the week" translation.

Matthew 28:1 is even worse. If we translate "σαββάτων" as "sabbaths", it would read something like, "Now after the sabbaths, toward the dawn of the first of the sabbaths...".

(02-07-2018 05:01 PM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  Jesus and His disciples kept the Passover on the 14th and the Feast Day on the 15th. However, many in the Jewish community (in fact, the majority) observed Passover in the daylight hours.

There were, however, a few changes in the Passover observance from its institution in Egypt and that practiced by the Jews in the 1st Century B.C. I thought these differences were understood by most church-goers, but I guess not. Or, if they are, they don't admit it.

One change was to have the people observe the Passover at the temple instead of at home. I believe this change occurred under Hezekiah, but I forget.

While God was clear in that the Passover and Feast were to be separate but adjacent observances. The Jews, while in Babylonian exile combined the two according to the Encyclopedia Judaica.

This unscriptural merging of festivals resulted in the Jews
observing Passover late on Abib 14th.

The Passover as given to Moses and the Israelites was called the Lord's Passover. At the time of Christ most referred to this as the Jew's Passover.

John 2:13 "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,"
John 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

Jesus (The member of the God family who commanded the observances of Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread) and His Apostles observed the Passover properly and correctly, and on the right day. The following day was the High Sabbath; forty eight hours later the weekly Sabbath would commence.

When reading the account of the Passover and Feast Day in the Gospel, one must determine whether the writer was referring to the Lord's Passover or the Jew's Passover. When this is u/s in its proper context there is no confusion.

I just don't like for people to deny large portions of what the Christian writers recorded simply because it confuses them, or because they don't like the message.

As Matthew said. "Three days and three nights."

OK. Even if we take everything you have written here as gospel truth, considering the far less confusing things that the gospel authors did explain, I find it implausible that the authors would have intended any of this, yet not explain any of it. The cure is worse than the disease.
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02-09-2018, 03:17 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2018 03:47 AM by Difflugia.)
Post: #2
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
I put together a synopsis/timeline of the Last Supper and crucifixion with my commentary. I'm quoting the ESV.

Announcing the Passover

Mk 14:1 It was now two days before the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to arrest him by stealth and kill him,
Mt 26:2 “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”
Lk 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover.
Jn 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father...

John's Last Supper begins

Jn 13:2 During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him,

The last supper begins and takes five chapters. There is no mention of the Passover between 13:1 and 18:28.

When is John's Passover

Jn 18:28 Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor's headquarters. It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor's headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover.

John specifies that this is the morning before the Passover meal, the "first day of Unleavened Bread" of the Synoptics. Jesus has already eaten the Last Supper and been arrested. The trial before Pilate begins.

Jn 19:22 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover. It was about the sixth hour.

The trial has concluded and Jesus is about to be led to Golgotha. It is now six hours after sunrise. This is the only time between the four gospels that the day prior to the Passover is called the "day of Preparation". When it's referred to in the Synoptics, it's always called the "first day of Unleavened Bread". In every other case, even in John, "day of Preparation" means Friday.

What day of the week is it?

Jn 19:31 Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.

It is now the day of Preparation (Friday). John is the only gospel to mention breaking legs. I'd thought that Mark had it, too, but I was wrong. Jesus dies before evening.

Jn 19:42 So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, since the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there.

Jesus is dead. It is now the time that the Passover meal would be eaten in the Synoptics, however the Passover meal itself is not mentioned in John.

Meanwhile...

Preparation for the Passover

Mk 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, “Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?”
Mt 26:17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?”
Lk 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it.”

The Last Supper/Passover

Mk 14:17-18 And when it was evening, he came with the twelve. And as they were reclining at table...
Mt 26:20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve.
Lk 22:14-15 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.

In the Synoptics, the Passover meal now concludes. Jesus is arrested and taken before the council.

Following the arrest

Mk 15:1 And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council.
Mt 27:1 When morning came, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death.
Lk 22:66 When day came, the assembly of the elders of the people gathered together, both chief priests and scribes.

It is now the morning following the Passover meal.

The death of Jesus

Mk 15:33 And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
Lk 23:44-45 It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun's light failed.

It's nine hours after sunrise on the day following the Passover meal and Jesus is dead.

What day of the week is it?

Mk 15:42-43 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
Mt 27:57-58 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him.
Lk 23:50-54 Now there was a man named Joseph, from the Jewish town of Arimathea. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man, who had not consented to their decision and action; and he was looking for the kingdom of God. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud and laid him in a tomb cut in stone, where no one had ever yet been laid. It was the day of Preparation, and the Sabbath was beginning.

In Mark and Luke, it's specifically Friday. Matthew has removed the reference to the day of Preparation. These are the only verses linking the crucifixion to a particular day of the week, Friday in this case.

Mt 27:62 The next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate

Each of the Synoptics mentions "the day of Preparation" a single time. Matthew has moved his from the Joseph of Arimathea pericope and moved it here. It is also the only verse in Matthew that anchors the crucifixion to Friday. I now think the word after was originally absent, placing Matthew's crucifixion on Thursday, but still mirroring the wording of both Mark and Luke.

The empty tomb

Mk 16:1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.
Mt 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
Lk 24:1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.
Jn 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

By all accounts, it's now Sunday morning. Jesus exited the tomb sometime prior to this.

Matthew's Last Supper/Passover meal was eaten on Wednesday evening and Jesus was crucified on Thursday.

Mark's and Luke's Last Suppers/Passover meals were eaten on Thursday evening and Jesus was crucified on Friday.

John's Last Supper was eaten on Thursday. He was crucified on Friday. His Passover meal would have been eaten on Friday evening.
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02-10-2018, 04:44 PM
Post: #3
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
(02-10-2018 09:45 AM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  The topic is harmonizing Matthew 12:40 with his timeline of the crucifixion, right?

--------------------------

*****Matthew 26:17 (reads) "Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, ‘Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"

We know that this could not have been the First Day of Unleavened Bread because no usual work was to be done on that day.

Notice that "day of the Feast of" is in italics. The translators added those words to the text.

also, a good Greek/Hebrew lexicon (I use Strong's most of the time) is an absolute must.

The word "first" is translated from "protos (4413)", which generally signifies something that is first either in a sequence, or first in prominence. "protos" can also indicate an order of events, as well as whether an event occurs before or concurrently with another.

A better translation of Matthew 16:17 would be:
"Now before [the Feast of] Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, ‘Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?

Their inquiry most certainly comes late in the day of the 13th, or just after sunset on the 14th.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure that's not right. Matthew uses forms of "protos" (πρῶτος) fifteen other times, and every time it means "first" or "foremost". Of the ninety-nine other instances of this word in the New Testament, it's only translated "before" twice, both times in John 1 (1:15 and 1:30), and both times in the phrase spoken by John the Baptist, "ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν", where the Baptist is specifically making the point that Jesus has primacy over him rather than simply having predated him.

Furthermore, even if we get rid of the clarifying phrase "day of the Feast", we still end up with "Now on the first of the Unleavened...", which is similar to the English phrase "on the first of the week" or "on the first of the month", both of which also mean exactly the same thing in Greek as they do in English. If you want to translate "πρῶτος" as before, you end up with "on the before of the Unleavened", which is as awkward in Greek as it is in English.

Furthermore furthermore, John's gospel actually says what you want Matthew's gospel to say. Instead of using "πρῶτος", however, he uses "πρὸ", which properly means "before". In wording that is clearly (to me, anyway) meant to mirror the phrasing of the Synoptics, John says "Πρὸ δὲ τῆς ἑορτῆς τοῦ πάσχα..." which is literally "Before, moreover, the Feast of the Passover...".

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  *****Mark 14:12 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou may eat the Passover?"

The word "first" is also from "protos," which can mean "before" or "the beginning."
Also, the word "day" is translated from "heemera (2250)." It can refer to a literal day of 24 hours, but it can also denote a season (as in the Christmas season), or a general period of time.

Notice (heemera in) 1 Cor 3:13; 2Cor 6:2; John 8:56; Luke 9:51; 17:24; 19:42; 23:7; Hebrews 3:8; Eph 6:13; Acts 2:29; 8:1; 17:31; and Romans 2:5.

We could safely reword Mark 14:12 as thus:

"Now at the beginning of the season of Unleavened Bread . . ."

There is absolutely nothing in this verse to mandate that heeméra designates a specific 24-hour period.
There is far greater argument against Mark referring to this as a 24 hour day.

Mark 14:1 already told us that we were within "δύο ἡμέρας", or "two days" of the Feast. While "in the day" can mean "in the season", it's not like it's a proper synonym. It's more of a poetic allusion. If that's what Mark intended, then it would be just as confusing in Greek as English. Take this example: "Two days before Christmas, Jane went shopping. Then, on the day of Christmas, Jane made eggnog." Even if we allow for the in/on ambiguity that exists between Greek and English, nobody who wrote that wouild mean that Jane just made eggnog sometime in December. If you suggested that as a possible (let alone the most probable) meaning, you would get at least a funny look.

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  The phrase "when they killed the Passover lamb" can also be misleading. Killed is translated from "ethuon" (2380).

"Ethuon" can refer to the single act of killing an animal (Acts 11:7). It can also refer to a religious sacrifice (Acts 14:13). However, it also can, as in Luke 15:23, 27 & 30, where the slaughtered animal is central, refer to the act of killing the fatted calf for the prodigal son.

Also, in the sentence in question, the verb tense indicates an action in progress but not yet completed.

The sacrificing of the Passover lamb, or just the preparations for doing so, was taking place as the disciples asked their question.

Many of the common people, who did not observe a Temple kept Passover, were sacrificing lambs throughout the city.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Whether or not "they" refers to the disciples or is a general "they" makes no difference. This was the day when everyone would be celebrating the Feast and many people were slaughtering lambs. Whether they had yet or not, the disciples would either be doing so themselves or having someone else do it for them. This occurred sometime before "they prepared the Passover" in 14:16.

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  Context is always paramount.

Exactly.

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  *****Luke 22:7-8 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the Passover must be killed.
8And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the Passover, that we may eat.

Remember that "day" (heemera) does not necessarily have to refer to a specific span of 24 hours. But may indicate a general period of time or a season. And, it is a fact that the Passover sacrifice was made within the time or season of unleavened bread.

In these verses we have something called "the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed, and it is taking place before the Passover.

[...]

These seemingly contradictory verses are about the "season" of unleavened bread, which begins with readying oneself on the 13th and coming to a complete close at the end of Abib 21.

In Christian countries Christmas Day is on the 25th of December, but "Christmas season" is much longer than that. For some the Christmas season begins the day after Thanksgiving and extends till January 2nd.

Again, you're asking us to think that all of the gospel authors wrote their accounts in ways that mean something entirely different than if taken at face value, but they offered no explanation at all. At the very least, Mark was writing for an audience that didn't understand Jewish customs (note the explanations throughout chapter 7). Making the text intentionally ambiguous doesn't really fit his goals.
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02-10-2018, 05:06 PM
Post: #4
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
(02-10-2018 04:44 PM)Difflugia Wrote:  
(02-10-2018 09:45 AM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  The topic is harmonizing Matthew 12:40 with his timeline of the crucifixion, right?

--------------------------

*****Matthew 26:17 (reads) "Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, ‘Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"

We know that this could not have been the First Day of Unleavened Bread because no usual work was to be done on that day.

Notice that "day of the Feast of" is in italics. The translators added those words to the text.

also, a good Greek/Hebrew lexicon (I use Strong's most of the time) is an absolute must.

The word "first" is translated from "protos (4413)", which generally signifies something that is first either in a sequence, or first in prominence. "protos" can also indicate an order of events, as well as whether an event occurs before or concurrently with another.

A better translation of Matthew 16:17 would be:
"Now before [the Feast of] Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, ‘Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?

Their inquiry most certainly comes late in the day of the 13th, or just after sunset on the 14th.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure that's not right. Matthew uses forms of "protos" (πρῶτος) fifteen other times, and every time it means "first" or "foremost". Of the ninety-nine other instances of this word in the New Testament, it's only translated "before" twice, both times in John 1 (1:15 and 1:30), and both times in the phrase spoken by John the Baptist, "ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν", where the Baptist is specifically making the point that Jesus has primacy over him rather than simply having predated him.

Furthermore, even if we get rid of the clarifying phrase "day of the Feast", we still end up with "Now on the first of the Unleavened...", which is similar to the English phrase "on the first of the week" or "on the first of the month", both of which also mean exactly the same thing in Greek as they do in English. If you want to translate "πρῶτος" as before, you end up with "on the before of the Unleavened", which is as awkward in Greek as it is in English.

Furthermore furthermore, John's gospel actually says what you want Matthew's gospel to say. Instead of using "πρῶτος", however, he uses "πρὸ", which properly means "before". In wording that is clearly (to me, anyway) meant to mirror the phrasing of the Synoptics, John says "Πρὸ δὲ τῆς ἑορτῆς τοῦ πάσχα..." which is literally "Before, moreover, the Feast of the Passover...".

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  *****Mark 14:12 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou may eat the Passover?"

The word "first" is also from "protos," which can mean "before" or "the beginning."
Also, the word "day" is translated from "heemera (2250)." It can refer to a literal day of 24 hours, but it can also denote a season (as in the Christmas season), or a general period of time.

Notice (heemera in) 1 Cor 3:13; 2Cor 6:2; John 8:56; Luke 9:51; 17:24; 19:42; 23:7; Hebrews 3:8; Eph 6:13; Acts 2:29; 8:1; 17:31; and Romans 2:5.

We could safely reword Mark 14:12 as thus:

"Now at the beginning of the season of Unleavened Bread . . ."

There is absolutely nothing in this verse to mandate that heeméra designates a specific 24-hour period.
There is far greater argument against Mark referring to this as a 24 hour day.

Mark 14:1 already told us that we were within "δύο ἡμέρας", or "two days" of the Feast. While "in the day" can mean "in the season", it's not like it's a proper synonym. It's more of a poetic allusion. If that's what Mark intended, then it would be just as confusing in Greek as English. Take this example: "Two days before Christmas, Jane went shopping. Then, on the day of Christmas, Jane made eggnog." Even if we allow for the in/on ambiguity that exists between Greek and English, nobody who wrote that wouild mean that Jane just made eggnog sometime in December. If you suggested that as a possible (let alone the most probable) meaning, you would get at least a funny look.

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  The phrase "when they killed the Passover lamb" can also be misleading. Killed is translated from "ethuon" (2380).

"Ethuon" can refer to the single act of killing an animal (Acts 11:7). It can also refer to a religious sacrifice (Acts 14:13). However, it also can, as in Luke 15:23, 27 & 30, where the slaughtered animal is central, refer to the act of killing the fatted calf for the prodigal son.

Also, in the sentence in question, the verb tense indicates an action in progress but not yet completed.

The sacrificing of the Passover lamb, or just the preparations for doing so, was taking place as the disciples asked their question.

Many of the common people, who did not observe a Temple kept Passover, were sacrificing lambs throughout the city.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Whether or not "they" refers to the disciples or is a general "they" makes no difference. This was the day when everyone would be celebrating the Feast and many people were slaughtering lambs. Whether they had yet or not, the disciples would either be doing so themselves or having someone else do it for them. This occurred sometime before "they prepared the Passover" in 14:16.

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  Context is always paramount.

Exactly.

(02-07-2018 10:40 AM)Difflugia Wrote:  *****Luke 22:7-8 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the Passover must be killed.
8And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the Passover, that we may eat.

Remember that "day" (heemera) does not necessarily have to refer to a specific span of 24 hours. But may indicate a general period of time or a season. And, it is a fact that the Passover sacrifice was made within the time or season of unleavened bread.

In these verses we have something called "the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed, and it is taking place before the Passover.

[...]

These seemingly contradictory verses are about the "season" of unleavened bread, which begins with readying oneself on the 13th and coming to a complete close at the end of Abib 21.

In Christian countries Christmas Day is on the 25th of December, but "Christmas season" is much longer than that. For some the Christmas season begins the day after Thanksgiving and extends till January 2nd.

Again, you're asking us to think that all of the gospel authors wrote their accounts in ways that mean something entirely different than if taken at face value, but they offered no explanation at all. At the very least, Mark was writing for an audience that didn't understand Jewish customs (note the explanations throughout chapter 7). Making the text intentionally ambiguous doesn't really fit his goals.

I think that what I am saying is a great deal better than saying that these apostles of God weren't even capable of understanding the Passover.

Either, they were saying what I understood them to say, or they are idiots.

If I thought that they were as simple-minded as you suggest they were (which I absolutely don't) I wouldn't trust a single thing they say.

I know very well that Satan doesn't want us to believe their writings. He will use every mean at his disposal to have us lose faith in the Bible.

No sir, They knew exactly when the Passover began and ended. They also understood when the First Day of Unleavened Bread began. I am 100% certain of that. Why wouldn't they; they had the God with them who established the Passover.

To say that these men were incompetent is a knock at Jesus, who selected them.
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02-11-2018, 02:17 AM
Post: #5
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
(02-10-2018 05:06 PM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  I think that what I am saying is a great deal better than saying that these apostles of God weren't even capable of understanding the Passover.

Either, they were saying what I understood them to say, or they are idiots.

If I thought that they were as simple-minded as you suggest they were (which I absolutely don't) I wouldn't trust a single thing they say.

I haven't suggest that the gospel authors didn't understand the Passover or were simple-minded. I only suggested that the translators of the Bible understood the Greek of the gospels better than you do.

You, on the other hand, have suggested that unless the words that the gospel authors used mean something completely different than what they do everywhere else, then they are idiots.

(02-10-2018 05:06 PM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  I know very well that Satan doesn't want us to believe their writings. He will use every mean at his disposal to have us lose faith in the Bible.

No sir, They knew exactly when the Passover began and ended. They also understood when the First Day of Unleavened Bread began. I am 100% certain of that. Why wouldn't they; they had the God with them who established the Passover.

To say that these men were incompetent is a knock at Jesus, who selected them.

Then don't say that. Say instead what modern scholarship says: none of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the events, let alone by members of the Twelve. The gospels also weren't written to be taken as literal history. Matthew was willing to change the events of Mark, Luke was willing to change them both and John was willing to completely rewrite the story specicifially because they all knew that they weren't modifying sacred history. The things that the gospels writers are trying to tell you about Jesus aren't a mundane sequence of events.

I suggest that you are doing exactly what the gospel writers did to each others' gospels. In the same way that Matthew thought that the triumphal entry required two donkeys to satisfy a prophecy, you've convinced yourself that the Passover stories must fit Leviticus and that the gospels must all harmonize with each other, even if you need to give some of the words new meaning. You've created a fifth gospel.
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02-11-2018, 07:48 AM
Post: #6
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
Then don't say that. Say instead what modern scholarship says: none of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the events, let alone by members of the Twelve. The gospels also weren't written to be taken as literal history. Matthew was willing to change the events of Mark, Luke was willing to change them both and John was willing to completely rewrite the story specicifially because they all knew that they weren't modifying sacred history. The things that the gospels writers are trying to tell you about Jesus aren't a mundane sequence of events.

-------------------------

You don't know who was a witness, and who wasn't. It is most certain that you weren't a witness.

In any event, you don't make one ounce of sense.

Stating that the writers didn't know what they were talking about, and that they constantly contradicted each other does nothing for your position. In fact, it weakens it to the point of being absurd, even a fantasy.

How am I supposed to take a man seriously when he, himself, doesn't even believe in the reliability of the writings that he uses to support his assertions?

I'm stating flat out that Jesus was in the tomb three days and three nights.
I'm stating flat out that there were two Sabbaths in that week.
I'm stating flat out that Jesus was placed in the tomb just before sunset Wednesday.
I'm stating flat out that Jesus came out of the tomb on Late Saturday, just before sunset.
I'm stating flat out that Jesus knew exactly when Passover was, and that He was killed on that very day.
I'm stating flat out that apostles knew when Passover was.

If you don't believe these statements; it is up to you to disprove them.

As of now you have put forth your best case and it has made me even more certain that my beliefs are right.

Unless, you can represent your position much more factually, then this conversation has ended.

If you can't do what I've requested you to do, I won't even reply.
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02-11-2018, 09:37 AM
Post: #7
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
(02-11-2018 07:48 AM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  I'm stating flat out that Jesus was in the tomb three days and three nights.
I'm stating flat out that there were two Sabbaths in that week.
I'm stating flat out that Jesus was placed in the tomb just before sunset Wednesday.
I'm stating flat out that Jesus came out of the tomb on Late Saturday, just before sunset.
I'm stating flat out that Jesus knew exactly when Passover was, and that He was killed on that very day.
I'm stating flat out that apostles knew when Passover was.

If you don't believe these statements; it is up to you to disprove them.

That's not how it works: if you make statements, it's up to you to support them with evidence. How else can you prove they are right?

What you're trying to do is called "shifting the burden of evidence" and is considered a very bad, maybe even dishonest discussion technique. Seems you're here not to discuss matters, but merely trying to convince people you are right by throwing out some unsupported opinions...

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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02-11-2018, 10:05 AM
Post: #8
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
That's not how it works: if you make statements, it's up to you to support them with evidence. How else can you prove they are right?

What you're trying to do is called "shifting the burden of evidence" and is considered a very bad, maybe even dishonest discussion technique. Seems you're here not to discuss matters, but merely trying to convince people you are right by throwing out some unsupported opinions...

-------------------

Exactly. I am shifting burden.

Thew same goes for you.

Prove me wrong!
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02-11-2018, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2018 11:32 AM by Amememhab.)
Post: #9
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
As authors in antiquity weren’t always careful to distinguish cardinal and ordinal numbers, “third day” and “three days” may be expressed with identical wording, even though specific phrases existed for each. They obviously differ from one another to us; “third day” meaning some interval 24 to 72 hours long, “three days” meaning exactly 72 hours. Greek writers exposed to the work of mathematicians took more care with time measurements than most others, leaving us some intelligence on the matter.

(02-07-2018 10:59 PM)Difflugia Wrote:  The phrase in Mark, John and Luke 24:1 is "τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων", literally "on the first of the sabbaths". Most Bibles translate it as "on the first [day] of the week". Fenton translates it as "the first [day following] the Sabbaths". The "day" is only assumed because they're translating "σαββάτων" as week and it makes no sense to imply "following". If the Bible's really referring to multiple sabbaths, then the phrase should read "on the first of the Sabbaths". That doesn't make sense in context, hence the "first of the week" translation.

The Trumpet (March 2010) must argue entirely from NT sources; unfortunately we lack independent corroboration of the crucifixion or its circumstances. Holy High Days are observed in Judaism, although today they’re not called Sabbaths—which always come Friday night to Saturday afternoon. Strong’s word 4521 σάββατον has a plural (with case endings English has lost; Difflugia notes the genitive). Yet Sabbaths could refer to the Saturdays of different weeks, among other things—original NT writers, long dead, not here to clarify.

I’m not sure how strong Mark Nash’s argument in The Trumpet from a single Greek koine word can be. Greek has undergone change since NT times. A modern Greek would surely fail in spoken conversation with the author of John, although the pair might (barely) be able to read one another’s texts, given that Greek at least wasn’t “Frenchified” by hordes of invading Normans replacing its vocabulary, then stripped of case grammar in simplifications adapting it to global use. We can’t even read Beowulf from halfway between the NT and the Internet.

Nash is right about one thing: Christ Jesus was murdered. And that’s what’s important, unless you’re trying to fix dates for Easter Week and so on. See Thayer’s Greek Lexicon entry, §2, at Bible Hub for Professor Sophocles on genitive neuter singular πρώτη σαββάτου in Mark 16:9 and Luke 18:12 as equivalent semantically to accusative usages which translate to “the first day after the Sabbath,” that is, Sunday.

Strong’s word 4521
Bible Hub
http://biblehub.com/greek/4521.htm
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02-11-2018, 12:18 PM
Post: #10
RE: Of crucifixions, Passovers and sabbaths, of cabbages and kings
(02-11-2018 10:05 AM)Rocky Lane Colson Wrote:  Exactly. I am shifting burden.

Thew same goes for you.

Prove me wrong!

this kind of childish behaviour won't get many takers, I can assure you. It also won't help you to be taken seriously by others.

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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