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Omniscient God? Really?
03-28-2010, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 03-29-2010 03:24 AM by Insightful.)
Post: #1
Omniscient God? Really?
Simple challenge:
If God is omniscient then:
-he knows everything, not metaphorically, but literally EVERYTHING
-he knows what is going to happen in the future( you think he has "plans" for us? if you know the future plans are pointless)
-therefore he knows what he is going to do(if not he is not omniscient and he can not know the future)
-is God capable of thinking when he already knows what he is going to think about?(you can forget about his intentions, plans or care, It's already been set, taken care of)
-God can not make "decisions"(there is no need for them since they all heve been made already, but whom?)
-no matter what you think about "free will" he already knows what are you going to do ( think you can suprise him? disappoint him? I don't think so )

and I could go on and on...

To sum it up, God must be some kind of mindless, programmed automoton.
But programmed by whom?

Just a thought to think about, thank you

Martin
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03-28-2010, 03:01 PM
Post: #2
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
Nah. Not really. I didn't even think he was omniscient when I did worship the Abrahamic God. My reasons for thinking so were not only philosophical, but scriptural; he doesn't even act omniscient in the Bible. I just sort of assumed it was something people just called God to flatter him and exalt him to curry favor with him.
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03-28-2010, 03:19 PM
Post: #3
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
(03-28-2010 03:01 PM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...he doesn't even act omniscient in the Bible...

Depends on what you mean by "omniscient." If God's omnipotence does NOT mean that God can make a stone so heavy that even God can't lift it, then God's omniscience does NOT require that God knows things that cannot be known (i.e., the future choices of free agents).

See Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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03-28-2010, 07:41 PM
Post: #4
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
(03-28-2010 03:19 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(03-28-2010 03:01 PM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...he doesn't even act omniscient in the Bible...

Depends on what you mean by "omniscient." If God's omnipotence does NOT mean that God can make a stone so heavy that even God can't lift it, then God's omniscience does NOT require that God knows things that cannot be known (i.e., the future choices of free agents).

See Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views

That just seems like a rationalization to me. For one thing, I suppose this has to do with free will, but wouldn't that sort of prove that he can make something too heavy to lift? In giving us free will, he made something unknowable while retaining his omniscience, so why shouldn't he make something unliftable while retaining his omnipotence?
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03-28-2010, 07:54 PM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2010 07:55 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #5
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
(03-28-2010 07:41 PM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...why shouldn't he make something unliftable while retaining his omnipotence?

It is not possible for an omnipotent being to make something so heavy that he couldn't lift it. Similarly, it is not possible for an omniscient being to know things that cannot be known.

Omnipotence and omniscience do not require that the absurd, or the irrational, or the self-contradictory can be accomplished or known.

Can God "know" that he doesn't exist? Of course not, just as God cannot "know" anything else that is unknowable.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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03-28-2010, 08:27 PM (This post was last modified: 03-28-2010 08:27 PM by Venedi Sporoi.)
Post: #6
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
Why must it be contradictory to know what someone will do? If God did know this, then life would be pointless as a test, granted, since he could just judge ahead of time and be done with it. That doesn't mean that knowing what someone will do is contradictory in and of itself- only that it's contradictory to another claim, namely that God must observe our actions in life to judge us.
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03-29-2010, 03:16 AM
Post: #7
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
(03-28-2010 08:27 PM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  Why must it be contradictory to know what someone will do? If God did know this, then life would be pointless as a test, granted, since he could just judge ahead of time and be done with it. That doesn't mean that knowing what someone will do is contradictory in and of itself- only that it's contradictory to another claim, namely that God must observe our actions in life to judge us.

I agree, I doesn't have to be necessarily contradictory to know what someone will do, but that's just one of many implications if we take the word "omniscient" literally. And then it is pretty contradictory.

So, point I was trying to make is that if we stick to logic and leave options like he's beyond reason, we cannot possibly understand him etc.
then he is not literally omniscient and there are things that cannot be known(otherwise he would be automoton). Following logic, if there is the unknown then you are capable of mistakes, if you are capable of mistakes you are learning, if you are learning you still can know "a lot" but you are not omniscient.

God can be pretty powerful, he can know things beyond our understanding but it seems to me that the words like omniscience, omnipotence are unattainable, perhaps, result of efforts to put God on the highest possible ground. Just my point of view.
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03-29-2010, 04:30 AM (This post was last modified: 03-29-2010 04:31 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #8
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
(03-29-2010 03:16 AM)Insightful Wrote:  
(03-28-2010 08:27 PM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  Why must it be contradictory to know what someone will do? If God did know this, then life would be pointless as a test, granted, since he could just judge ahead of time and be done with it. That doesn't mean that knowing what someone will do is contradictory in and of itself- only that it's contradictory to another claim, namely that God must observe our actions in life to judge us.

I agree, I doesn't have to be necessarily contradictory to know what someone will do, but that's just one of many implications if we take the word "omniscient" literally. And then it is pretty contradictory.

So, point I was trying to make is that if we stick to logic and leave options like he's beyond reason, we cannot possibly understand him etc.
then he is not literally omniscient and there are things that cannot be known(otherwise he would be automoton). Following logic, if there is the unknown then you are capable of mistakes, if you are capable of mistakes you are learning, if you are learning you still can know "a lot" but you are not omniscient.

God can be pretty powerful, he can know things beyond our understanding but it seems to me that the words like omniscience, omnipotence are unattainable, perhaps, result of efforts to put God on the highest possible ground. Just my point of view.

All of your arguments are based upon your inability to conceptualise a God and that Gods abilities. It makes no sense for you to be the arbiter of those things. The simple fact that you are incapable of conceptualising those attributes, automatically, disqualifies you as an arbiter. It is not just you it is in fact all of mankind, who, in reality has no place judging God if such a god exists.

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03-29-2010, 05:03 AM
Post: #9
RE: Omniscient God? Realy?
(03-29-2010 04:30 AM)kevlar Wrote:  
(03-29-2010 03:16 AM)Insightful Wrote:  
(03-28-2010 08:27 PM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  Why must it be contradictory to know what someone will do? If God did know this, then life would be pointless as a test, granted, since he could just judge ahead of time and be done with it. That doesn't mean that knowing what someone will do is contradictory in and of itself- only that it's contradictory to another claim, namely that God must observe our actions in life to judge us.

I agree, I doesn't have to be necessarily contradictory to know what someone will do, but that's just one of many implications if we take the word "omniscient" literally. And then it is pretty contradictory.

So, point I was trying to make is that if we stick to logic and leave options like he's beyond reason, we cannot possibly understand him etc.
then he is not literally omniscient and there are things that cannot be known(otherwise he would be automoton). Following logic, if there is the unknown then you are capable of mistakes, if you are capable of mistakes you are learning, if you are learning you still can know "a lot" but you are not omniscient.

God can be pretty powerful, he can know things beyond our understanding but it seems to me that the words like omniscience, omnipotence are unattainable, perhaps, result of efforts to put God on the highest possible ground. Just my point of view.

All of your arguments are based upon your inability to conceptualise a God and that Gods abilities. It makes no sense for you to be the arbiter of those things. The simple fact that you are incapable of conceptualising those attributes, automatically, disqualifies you as an arbiter. It is not just you it is in fact all of mankind, who, in reality has no place judging God if such a god exists.

I was trying to develop some points regarding his attributes except for arguments that he is beyond my comprehension or ability to conceptualise him. I am not trying to be an arbiter or judge, rather somebody who is trying to explore these things further. Where's the harm in that?
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03-29-2010, 05:45 AM (This post was last modified: 03-29-2010 05:46 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #10
RE: Omniscient God? Really?
Certainly no harm, and no offence meant on my part. I was simply stating a point of view. Please continue with your train of thought and ignore me. I'm just a picky bastardd Smile Big Grin

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