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Prophecies
01-16-2018, 10:12 AM
Post: #111
RE: Prophecies
(01-15-2018 06:04 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  ...What Jesus meant by that statement was the fact that all prophets, in carrying and conveying the Message of God to the people, will endure sufferings, persecutions, abused, etc...

And in some cases being put to death:

...ye are the children of them which killed the prophets." Mt.23:31

(01-15-2018 06:04 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  Now, still you may ask “What about the third day ? Surely, the third day which Jesus said he will be raised is a reference to himself rising from the dead in this world!”. At first reading, yes, that’s what it would have implied BUT, when one really study the Bible, one tend to realize that the Bible usage of the number three is abundant...

Actually, people who really study the Bible realize Jesus' disciples went to His tomb.

(01-15-2018 06:04 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  “After two days He will revive us; ON THE THIRD DAY He will raise us up, that we may live before Him” – Hosea 6:2. This verse is a reference to the Day of Resurrection when all life no longer existed and God will revive all the dead and raise them to be judged before Him.

All the dead are raised and judged on the 7th day (Jn.6:39). Hosea was referring to being alive in a spiritual sense because of faith in Jesus (Jn.5:25).
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01-16-2018, 11:17 AM
Post: #112
RE: Prophecies
(01-15-2018 08:07 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  What you consider "heresy" is of Roman origin.

The Romans were told His body was stolen. The resurrection of Jesus was reported by the Jews.

(01-15-2018 08:07 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  The Nicene creed was not uttered by Jesus, peace be witrh him! A belief which singles out one human being out of all that have ever lived to be "God" is not at all logical ..

It is when you come to understand only God has power over death.


(01-15-2018 08:07 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  ...but then many feel that it doesn't matter. It's not that mankind hasn't claimed the same thing about other prophets.

Only One isn't dead.

(01-15-2018 08:07 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  Why do you think that the first commandment (OT) and the first pillar of Islam are identical?

I don't know the reason given by Islam. The Christian reason for the 1st commandment (and the rest of them) is to show us how inadequate all of mankind is (Jesus excluded.)
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01-16-2018, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 01-16-2018 02:50 PM by Amememhab.)
Post: #113
RE: Prophecies
(01-16-2018 11:17 AM)journeyman Wrote:  
(01-15-2018 08:07 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  The Nicene Creed was not uttered by Jesus, peace be with him! A belief which singles out one human being out of all that have ever lived to be "God" is not at all logical...

It is when you come to understand only God has power over death.

This reply doesn’t answer Isa’s question. We ask whether the Nicene Creed, uttered by no one at all until 325 CE when the bishops of Alexandria, Rome and Antioch published it as part of the results from a conclave of more than 300 bishops whom Emperor Constantine had gathered at Nicaea in what became Christianity’s first-ever general conference, is a doctrine Jesus would have endorsed. Constantine had acted because theological rifts were already shredding a church he wanted to arrive at a consensus belief, that the Roman world avoid secessions or religious civil wars.

[Image: 2r7bxug.jpg]
Nicene Creed, 5th cent, copy, Rylands Library

As amended by the Council of Constantinople in 381, the Nicene Creed reads, in part,

“We believe in one God…maker of heaven and earth…We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, …God from God…of one being with the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life...We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church…We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.”

Jesus, a humble soul, has never promoted his own divinity, an attribution always expressed by others on his behalf. He did, however, predict his death, resurrection, and return in glory (Mark 9:31, Luke 21:27-36), as he bounced little children on his knee and ministered to the poor, the sick, and those his society reviled. The Nicene Creed isn’t an item of scripture. It makes a statement of faith the Anglican churches, among others, have adopted, exerting influence throughout the Western world.

How the Council of Nicaea Changed the World
Live Science, March 30, 2008
https://www.livescience.com/2410-council...world.html

Nicene Creed
Text as in Episcopal Book of Common Prayer
http://www.anglicancommunion.org/media/1...-Creed.pdf
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01-17-2018, 01:53 AM
Post: #114
RE: Prophecies
journeyman Wrote:  And in some cases being put to death:

...ye are the children of them which killed the prophets." Mt.23:31

Yup, some are even put to death for carrying and conveying the Message of God to the people. However, that does not change the fact that when Jesus said he will suffer, he was referring and equating himself to the sufferings of the previous prophets who were, like him, conveying the Message of God to the masses and NOT about him having 'to die for man sins'.

journeyman Wrote:  Actually, people who really study the Bible realize Jesus' disciples went to His tomb.

So what about with “Jesus' disciples went to his tomb” ? You mind elaborate further ?


journeyman Wrote:  All the dead are raised and judged on the 7th day (Jn.6:39).

John 6:39 reads “And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given me, but raise them up at the last day.”

Where is the ‘7th day’ ?? All I see is that Jesus again (and again and again…...) making a statement that he is NOT God as he clearly said he was sent by God and it was not his will but the will of God.

journeyman Wrote:  Hosea was referring to being alive in a spiritual sense….

Well, if you understand in that term, that is, when we died we will be raised again in spiritual forms, yes, you will be right since Hosea was referring to the Day of Resurrection.

journeyman Wrote:  ……….because of faith in Jesus (Jn.5:25)

Its NOT because of faith in Jesus BUT, its because of faith in God. This is confirmed by a verse just before John 5:25 which reads “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”.
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Yesterday, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 09:22 AM by journeyman.)
Post: #115
RE: Prophecies
(01-15-2018 08:50 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Your gnomic statement is true in general. Yet the Pharisees knew the Lord, choosing not to obey his voice. In the 17th century, the English word “know” was more flexible in meaning than it is now. It could mean to have sexual relations with someone. Negated, as in “you don’t know him,” it could mean to be willfully disobedient to someone you actually knew perfectly well. Check the Oxford English Dictionary’s entry.

People who know God perfectly well don't hate Jesus:

"Ye neither know Me, nor My Father: if ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also." Jn.8:19

(01-15-2018 08:50 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  This is one pitfall for modern readers of the 1611 Authorized Version, especially if they don’t use side notes—although I love its translation, in my opinion achieving the highest literary polish of any English bible. While some brutal men do appear to know little or nothing about God, the Pharisees, affluent and well-educated, were held responsible for knowing him: The lawgivers of that society were drawn from their ranks.

Here's the pitfall (pun intended):

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Mt.7:23

(01-15-2018 08:50 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  When it comes to going on suicide missions, note that I qualified my statement with the word almost. Very few people are willing to give up their lives for a higher cause, but there are exceptions. The sinless Jesus was one of them...

Jesus didn't commit suicide.

(01-15-2018 08:50 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Certainly. But I never said that Jesus had been tricked. Nor was I making a gospel-related comparison...

Then your example has no value in this conversation.

(01-15-2018 08:50 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Yes, we are expected to follow Jesus’s example, to the best of our ability. Some early Christians followed it all the way to a lion’s jaws in the Roman arenas. However, others may find themselves unable to make this ultimate sacrifice if tested, and only a zealot would demand it of them. Vigor in the Lord’s service is good. Yet zeal is dangerous: It leads to perfectionism, pride, crusades, and heedless cruelty toward others.

People who are led into pride, etc. have no zeal for God. Our focus is on our Lord Jesus who although zealous, exhibited none of the traits you're associating with zeal.

(01-15-2018 08:50 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Rather, we should go to them, and then apply the information in a Christian manner, with the realization the social sciences are neither sinless nor error-free. God gave us minds to use—a thing the fundamentalists and dogmatists forget. I’m sharing this with you precisely because I don’t see you as an inconvertible dogmatist. We disagree a lot, your Christianity much more conservative than mine. But you do think about the opinions you present here. I fear, however, the possibilities of theocracy and pulpit-thumping hatred toward disfavored social groups, especially given that fella we’ve put in the White House. Andrew Scaramucci, anyone? Sounds pretty scary to me.

Personally, I think of myself as a citizen of Gods' Kingdom. I have no fear of who's in the White House, because Jesus is on the Throne.
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Today, 05:52 AM (This post was last modified: Today 05:54 AM by Amememhab.)
Post: #116
RE: Prophecies
(Yesterday 09:21 AM)journeyman Wrote:  People who know God perfectly well don't hate Jesus.

Knowing and hating are two different things. You can hate someone you know. Some people hate their parents, for instance, yet know those parents perfectly well because they grew up in those households. I explained 17th century English usage of the word “know” as an equivalent of our modern phrases, “be obedient to, be loyal to, be friends with.”

You’ll need to learn the English of that time period if you want to read the King James bible, because our language has changed over the last 400 years. Don’t take my word for it if you don’t believe me. Look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary. You’ll find a copy at your public library, on the reference shelves. It’s a massive, 20-volume set, and the volumes usually have dark blue fabric covers.

If you doubt English changes, try reading Chaucer’s The Miller’s Tale in the original. Or Beowulf. I can sort of make some sense out of Chaucer’s writing from the 1380s, but Beowulf, about 500 years older, may as well be in German. Elizabethan and Stuart English, as in Shakespeare, is the trickiest. It’s modern enough to fool us—we can parse most of its sentences accurately, but we trip over words which had been defined differently back then. If Shakespeare tells you that you’re “nice,” for instance, he means you’re gay. If he’d said you were gay, he would mean you are happy.

Now let’s go back to John 8:19, where I’ve inserted modern equivalents for the Stuart know: “Ye neither know me (you’re not my friends), nor my Father: if ye had known (been loyal to) me, ye should have known (been obedient to) my Father also.”

Makes perfect sense now! Yet we’re not out of the woods. The recent NIV and NRSV translations also use “know” in John 8:19. Why? Because we can still use “know” today in the sense of “be obedient to, be loyal to, be friends with.” We just don’t do so as often. We’ve switched to prefer “be familiar with, be aware of” as meanings for this word. Which concludes my lesson for the day.

(Yesterday 09:21 AM)journeyman Wrote:  Jesus didn't commit suicide.

I never said Jesus committed suicide. He was murdered. I said he went on a suicide mission, that is, an assignment he knew would likely lead to his death. Modern, patriotic soldiers sometimes volunteer for such missions, and we don’t accuse them of suicide. In fact, in the military case, while the soldier knows he’ll probably die, he holds out some hope of surviving the mission.

(Yesterday 09:21 AM)journeyman Wrote:  Our focus is on our Lord Jesus who although zealous, exhibited none of the traits you're associating with zeal.

Jesus was never described as a “zealot” anywhere in the bible. Zeal isn’t really a good thing. What it does is pursue good qualities such as loyalty or vigor to unhealthy extremes, where it causes us to become narrow-minded, stuck in orthodoxy and intolerance. With our minds closed to new information, we may act foolishly, or do evil things in the service of the master we love. Of Israel, Paul said, “They have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge” (Romans 10:2).

Here we encounter issues of English usage again, where “zeal” may carry either positive or negative connotations depending on its referents. The Nazi SS officers of WWII were zealots. So were the Maccabees, although perhaps not as bad, desiring only Jewish independence, yet enforcing the Jewish state with a vengeance in their territories, and practicing ethnic cleansing to rid themselves of Macedonian Greeks and other foreigners.

(Yesterday 09:21 AM)journeyman Wrote:  I have no fear of who's in the White House, because Jesus is on the Throne.

Nor do I fear Trump per se. I trust God. I’m just not brash enough to think I won’t crap my pants if he opens that nuclear football. Getting flash burns while your house collapses on your head in a blast wave isn’t fun. Yeah. You can get burned indoors, if the fireball shines on you through a window. It’s hot enough to ignite your carpets from several miles away.
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Today, 09:44 AM
Post: #117
RE: Prophecies
(01-16-2018 02:48 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  This reply doesn’t answer Isa’s question.

It does if you understand how Jesus isn't like the rest of us.

(01-16-2018 02:48 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  We ask whether the Nicene Creed, uttered by no one at all until 325 CE when the bishops of Alexandria, Rome and Antioch published it as part of the results from a conclave of more than 300 bishops whom Emperor Constantine had gathered at Nicaea in what became Christianity’s first-ever general conference, is a doctrine Jesus would have endorsed.

Jn.1 endorses it.

(01-16-2018 02:48 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Jesus, a humble soul, has never promoted his own divinity...

Yes He did:

"Watch ye therefore and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man." Lk.21:36

(01-16-2018 02:48 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  He did, however, predict his death, resurrection, and return in glory (Mark 9:31, Luke 21:27-36)...

Here's another:

"Our God shall come and shall not keep silence. A fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him." Ps.50:3
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Today, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: Today 12:34 PM by muhammad_isa.)
Post: #118
RE: Prophecies
(Today 09:44 AM)journeyman Wrote:  Here's another:

"Our God shall come and shall not keep silence. A fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him." Ps.50:3

What are you on!?
Scripture is not meant to be read one verse here, one verse there .. practically ANYTHING AT ALL can be "proved" .. you are fooling yourself .. try reading the whole of Psalm 50

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
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Today, 05:35 PM
Post: #119
RE: Prophecies
(Today 09:44 AM)journeyman Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 02:48 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Jesus, a humble soul, has never promoted his own divinity...

Yes He did: "Watch ye therefore and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man." Lk.21:36

Jesus is not declaring himself a god in Luke 21:36. “Son of man” doesn’t mean “God.” We are all sons of men. Instead, Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, in the Lord’s prayer (Matthew 6:9-13). Jesus also prayed to the Father, not to himself. Other people in the bible do call Jesus the Son of God (Matthew 14:33, 1 John 5:20), and so do the unclean spirits in Mark 3:11. Yet Jesus never calls himself this, nor does he call himself “God.”

(Today 09:44 AM)journeyman Wrote:  
(01-16-2018 02:48 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  This reply doesn’t answer Isa’s question.

It does if you understand how Jesus isn't like the rest of us.

No, you still haven’t answered Isa’s question. In case you need a review, here’s his question, along with your reply to him:

(01-16-2018 11:17 AM)journeyman Wrote:  
(01-15-2018 08:07 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  The Nicene Creed was not uttered by Jesus, peace be with him! A belief which singles out one human being out of all that have ever lived to be "God" is not at all logical...

It is when you come to understand only God has power over death.

It seems you understand a lot of stuff no other Christian or Muslim on this planet understands. Please enlighten us. I agree that John chapter 1, taken together with several other statements in the bible, does lend support to the concepts expressed in the Nicene Creed. Yet Jesus never uttered the creed himself. It is a product derived from the councils of Nicaea (325 CE) and Constantinople (381 CE). Curiously, even the Nicene Creed doesn’t use the words “Trinity” or “triune.” It merely calls Jesus the “Son of God,” and then says that the Holy Ghost “proceeds from the Father and the Son.”

Nicene Creed
Anglican Communion
http://www.anglicancommunion.org/media/1...-Creed.pdf

The Catholic Church also carries this creed, with slight variations in wording. Finally, I recommend following Isa’s advice to read sections of the bible as units. Anyone can quote-mine the bible to prove whatever they want. The devil quoted scripture in Matthew 4:5-6 when he was tempting Jesus in the wilderness. If you read the rest of Psalm 50, you’ll see that God rebukes Israel, then ends with a promise that “to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God” (Psalm 50:23).

In other words, God is merciful to us if we clean up our mouths.
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