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Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
08-17-2013, 08:25 AM
Post: #1
Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
Assalamu Alaikum,

I was wondering if Muslims on this forum could explain what these 2 verses from the Quran are referring to.

25:53

And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.


55:19,20

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];

Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.



*The words in brackets are not in the Quran but is the translator’s insertion, as can be seen from http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?c...5&verse=53


Where in the world are there two bodies of water that meet, one being salty and one being sweet, but between which is a barrier that is “forbidden” (according to CorpusQuran, that is the word, not “complete”) to be passed?


Shukran wa Allahma3k
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08-17-2013, 08:29 PM (This post was last modified: 08-17-2013 08:43 PM by muslim girl.)
Post: #2
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
that's called an estuary which is a moving, dynamic body of water where fresh and salt water meet.Because of
characteristic differences between salt and fresh water, however, the two don't always easily blend. Sometimes they don't mix at all, but instead stratify or form layers.
again I don't believe that Quran is science book but I believe it doesn't have scientific errors as it is from who create the universe ...
thank you for asking Smile
God bless you Smile
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08-17-2013, 10:54 PM (This post was last modified: 08-17-2013 11:08 PM by TG123.)
Post: #3
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
(08-17-2013 08:29 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  that's called an estuary which is a moving, dynamic body of water where fresh and salt water meet.Because of
characteristic differences between salt and fresh water, however, the two don't always easily blend. Sometimes they don't mix at all, but instead stratify or form layers.
again I don't believe that Quran is science book but I believe it doesn't have scientific errors as it is from who create the universe ...
thank you for asking Smile
God bless you Smile
Assalamu Alaikum, muslim girl, and thank you for the response.

As you noted, in an estuary, salt and fresh water does meet. Although layers are formed and mixing occurs more at some levels than others, it always does occur.

There are 4 types of estuaries- salt wedge, fjord, vertically mixed, and fresh water. The least amount of mixing happens in the "salt wedge".

There are 4 types of estuaries- salt wedge, fjord, vertically mixed, and fresh water. The least amount of mixing happens in the "salt wedge".

Salt-wedge estuaries are the most stratified, [undefined=undefined]or least mixed[/undefined], of all estuaries (Molles, 2002; Ross, 1995). They are also called highly stratified estuaries. Salt-wedge estuaries occur when a rapidly flowing river discharges into the ocean where tidal currents are weak. The force of the river pushing fresh water out to sea rather than tidal currents transporting seawater upstream determines the water circulation in these estuaries. As fresh water is less dense than saltwater, it floats above the seawater. A sharp boundary is created between the water masses, with fresh water floating on top and a wedge of saltwater on the bottom. [undefined=undefined]Some mixing does occur [/undefined]at the boundary between the two water masses, but it is generally slight. The location of the wedge varies with the weather and tidal conditions. Examples of salt-wedge estuaries are the Columbia River in Washington and Oregon, the Hudson River in New York, and the Mississippi River in Louisiana.

In the animation below, the blue-colored fresh water flows from the river on the right-hand side of the image over a green-colored wedge of salty seawater as it moves out toward the ocean on the left-hand side of the image.
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/k...wedge.html


I have a lot of respect for the Quran and Islam, although I am a Christian. I like how Islam teaches there is only one God, and the good values in it like respecting parents and giving money to the needy. I know some very good and honourable Muslim friends, people who I would trust with my life. I think though Islam is not from God, not only because it denies Christ's divinity and death on the cross, but also because there are several errors in it, like those above.

I definitely do not buy the lies that some propagate about Islam, ie that it encourages terrorism, or that most Muslims are violent or that those who are, are following Islam. I also do not hypocritically blame extremists among Muslims while ignoring the far greater crimes that many Western leaders perpetrate. I have taken part in protests against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I have been in Palestine with human rights groups to document abuses by the IDF and settlers against Palestinians, predominantly Muslims, since we were in Hebron.

I am interested in sharing my faith with Muslims, and listening to you share yours. I am also interested in challenging and debating your religion and inviting you to Christianity, as well as answering and discussing any challenges or problems or disagreements you have about my beliefs.

Looking forward to some good discussions with you and other Muslims on here.

Allahma3k to you also. Blessed be His Name. Smile
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08-19-2013, 04:36 PM
Post: #4
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
" Palestine with human rights groups to document abuses by the IDF and settlers against Palestinians, predominantly Muslims, since we were in Hebron. "
thank you
I can adore you for such reason Smile
the point that " Some mixing does occur at the boundary between the two water masses, but it is generally slight"
so they don't blend
and the mixing is slightly so at some points ... no mixing will happened ...really
and the mixing can't called blending ...
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08-21-2013, 11:15 AM (This post was last modified: 09-28-2013 12:54 PM by Visqueen.)
Post: #5
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
(08-19-2013 04:36 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  " Palestine with human rights groups to document abuses by the IDF and settlers against Palestinians, predominantly Muslims, since we were in Hebron. "
thank you
I can adore you for such reason Smile
Salaam Alaikum and thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I really deserve anyone's adoration. I was only there for a few weeks, and aside from observing and reporting on what was happening as well as in a few cases trying to intervene when Palestinians were being attacked and accompanying people to school and once to the mosque, we didn't do that much. The Palestinians, unlike us, faced the brunt of the violence by the IDF and settlers. The Israeli activists defending them got it pretty bad too.

We faced threats and harrassment from the soldiers and settlers, and some of my friends were arrested at demos, often violently. A friend and I were attacked by three masked settlers in a Palestinian village (Al Bwehre) close to Hebron that we were monitoring because of frequent attacks on that village by the settlers during which they would burn crops, stone cars, beat up kids and farmers. They used a metal pipe to break my nose and badly bruise his leg, before running off. We were taken to a Palestinian hospital, where, without asking for a cent, the doctor gave me free surgery and put my nose back in place. If there is anyone who deserves to be thanked it isn't me, but him and the other caring hospital staff who looked after me and charged me nothing for all this. Of course, I thank God for my life the most, but He definitely worked through them to help me so my thanks go to them too. Smile

Whatever problems I experienced were nothing compared to what the people we were working with faced. Our Palestinian friends were arrested, and after being arrested, would be beaten and kicked. While we always had the option of leaving and coming back to our countries, they face checkpoints everyday. Palestinian families in Bethlehem have to ration their water, while setters on the hilltops above have sprinklers, swimming pools, and green lawns. When Palestinians get beaten up by the settlers or army, there is no free health care available to them. One of the farmers who once let us stay in his house was beaten up a few days before I left, in the middle of the night, by settlers who broke into his house and used a club to break one of his knees. Palestinians at rallies have been shot and killed, and some have been maimed for life. Palestinian kids have rocks thrown at them on the way to school, and Palestinian farmers have their crops burnt, sheep killed, sometimes even the homes are attacked. And this only describes what is happening in the West Bank. The situation in Gaza is so much worse than all of this.

Israeli activists who help the Palestinians do not live under a military occupation like they do, but are often ostracized and harrassed back home by their families and loved ones, and sometimes have trouble finding work because of their brave stance. And some Palestinian armed group launches a Qassam rocket attack or shooting or sets off a bomb in retaliation for the IDF's crimes in the West Bank or Gaza, they are in the indiscriminate line of fire just like everyone else.

So yeah... our Palestinian and Israeli friends these are the people who deserve your and my admiration. I'm a white dude who went over there for a few weeks and got a small taste of the reality in the West Bank. They are living in this situation everyday.


I also did some similar work in Arizona, on the US-Mexico border. Though the situation there is even less publicized than it is in Palestine, it is even worse. Hundreds of people trying to cross the border illegally to work so they can send money to often very poor and hungry families back home, die every year due to dehydration, heatstroke, attacks by criminals, and police brutality from both the US and Mexican side. Unlike in Palestine, I was never in any physical danger, but the people we were helping suffered more death and violence and deprivation even than our Palestinian friends in Hebron and Bethlehem.

My purpose for maintaining both of the blogs was to raise awareness to what is going on, by documenting what I experienced and witnessed. I am an evangelical Christian and am very open about my faith, so you may or may not agree with everything I write and that's ok with me.Smile Due to the nature of the work I was involved in, both blogs will contain some very distressing stories. I talked to Palestinians as well as Mexicans who have suffered a lot, and with their permission, I shared their stories. Some of them may be difficult to read. My blog from the West Bank includes pictures and videos I took of the soldiers arresting and physically attacking Palestinian and Israeli and my fellow international activists, as well as pictures from the aftermath of the attack on me and my friend by the settlers. The photos are graphic, but their purpose is to document and not to raise sympathy for us or to incite hatred against the settlers... though what they are doing is wrong and evil and inexcusable, it doesn't change the fact that Jesus died for them on the cross and they are sinners in need of His salvation like me and you and everyone else.

So yeah, feel free to check the blogs out if you want, or not. Sorry for the long ramble.

(08-19-2013 04:36 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  the point that " Some mixing does occur at the boundary between the two water masses, but it is generally slight"
so they don't blend
and the mixing is slightly so at some points ... no mixing will happened ...really
and the mixing can't called blending ...
True, the mixing occurs at the boundary, and it is slight.

However, the Quran's author stated there is a "forbidden partition between them" and that the barrier is "so that neither of them transgresses". Obviously, them meeting and mixing would be an example of them getting past this barrier.

If God put the barrier between the waters to stop them from transgressing, why do they transgress?


25:53
And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water)*, one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a forbidden partition between them.

55:19,20
He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.

*The words in brackets are not in the Quran but is the translator’s insertion, as can be seen from The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

Take care and Allahma3k.
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08-22-2013, 05:32 PM (This post was last modified: 08-22-2013 05:34 PM by muslim girl.)
Post: #6
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
I am more interested about your volunteer work
I can't enter Palestine as they they don't consider me Palestinian ...
So my hope to enter it as member of red cross or UN teams ...
I have tried hardly to study medicine just to work in red cross ...
now I am studying pharma ... and try to achieve all the needs so they accept me in red cross ...
I really read the needs , and really in my way to finish some ...
I am wondering how could you to such places and work , like under which organization were you working ???
I have some simple volunteer events in my home ...
and now there is course for volunteering from UN in my home ...
I apply form to join ... not sure I will get such pleasure ...
my dream was to be peace activist since I was so small ...
I try to help people in the wars by being member in red cross , UN or even Qaeda ...
so if you know any way tell me ...
about Red Cross I can't choose were to be sent ... however I would accept that :/ even though I prefer to help my people
they told me I need to empty for 7 months at least ...
I remember I use to see peace activist as hero ...
and YOU ARE HERO TG123
about the verse
there is really kind of barrier between them because density difference
they don't totally mix immediately . do they ??
so there is kind of barrier
Oh , sorry to be late ... stupid exams...
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08-23-2013, 08:53 AM (This post was last modified: 08-23-2013 09:03 AM by TG123.)
Post: #7
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
(08-22-2013 05:32 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  I am more interested about your volunteer work
I can't enter Palestine as they they don't consider me Palestinian ...
So my hope to enter it as member of red cross or UN teams ...
I have tried hardly to study medicine just to work in red cross ...
now I am studying pharma ... and try to achieve all the needs so they accept me in red cross ...
I really read the needs , and really in my way to finish some ...
I am wondering how could you to such places and work , like under which organization were you working ???
I have some simple volunteer events in my home ...
and now there is course for volunteering from UN in my home ...
I apply form to join ... not sure I will get such pleasure ...
my dream was to be peace activist since I was so small ...
I try to help people in the wars by being member in red cross , UN or even Qaeda ...
so if you know any way tell me ...
about Red Cross I can't choose were to be sent ... however I would accept that :/ even though I prefer to help my people
they told me I need to empty for 7 months at least ...
I'm really impressed that you want to go overseas and help out also and that you are doing things from where you live. I am also impressed that you are taking pharmacy, lol I tried chemistry in high school and barely survived the course. Smile

I don't know much about working with the UN or Red Cross, except that Israel will sometimes restrict them also from coming in, and there is the strong possibility that the organization may send you where you are needed and not where you necessarily want to be... although I would argue also that every person suffering from war and poverty and oppression is made in God's likeness and image so that would mean wherever I'd go and be able to help would be a blessing for me. I can understand preferring to be in one part of the world though, I really loved being in the West Bank.

There are activist groups that do work in Palestine. They would include Christian Peacemaker Teams, International Solidarity Movement, Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme in Palestine and Israel, . I worked with CPT and ISM during the few weeks I was there. CPT is geared mostly towards Christians, though they do also accept non-Christians in their ranks. International Solidarity Movement is secular, and most of the volunteers there I worked with were atheists. To work with CPT, you first do a 2 week delegation with them, to work with ISM you just literally need to get into Israel, cross over into East Jerusalem, and meet up with them. Details on how to do that are on their site.

As you can imagine, both of these groups are very unpopular with the Israeli government, so when you enter the country and they ask you why you are coming, you definitely do not mention anything about Palestinians, peace, either of the groups. Do not bring with you for the flight any material that could identify you as an activist or being pro-Palestinian. Most activists will tell customs they are coming as tourists, and this is in fact what I said to them. Since I do not want to lie, I made sure to spend a few days doing tourist stuff in Israel before heading off to the West Bank. When I went into Arizona, I also definitely did NOT tell them I was going to help migrants in the desert, or mention the group I was going to work with. Both Israel and to a smaller extent the US, have deported or denied entry to people who are identified as or were figured out to activists going to the West Bank or Arizona.

Glad you are wanting to come out and volunteer, all the best to you with that.

PS the part you said about going with Al Qaeda was a joke... right? Smile
(08-22-2013 05:32 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  I remember I use to see peace activist as hero ...
and YOU ARE HERO TG123
LOL thanks but I'm not any more of a hero than you or anyone else.
(08-22-2013 05:32 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  about the verse
there is really kind of barrier between them because density difference
they don't totally mix immediately . do they ??
so there is kind of barrier
Well, the waters meet and mix within a certain area. When this happens in the Sill of Gibraltar, it is called "salt figering", in an area where freshwater meets ocean, we get what is called "brackish water". They don't completely overflow each other, but they definitely meet and mix with each other to an extent.
(08-22-2013 05:32 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  Oh , sorry to be late ... stupid exams...
No worries, take all the time you need.
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08-27-2013, 09:01 PM
Post: #8
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
hmmm........
Thank you for the information , I will try to use ...
but about the verse ........
they don't mix totally so there is no wrong in saying there is barrier ....
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09-28-2013, 11:02 AM
Post: #9
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
(08-27-2013 09:01 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  hmmm........
Thank you for the information , I will try to use ...
but about the verse ........
they don't mix totally so there is no wrong in saying there is barrier ....

Salaam Alaikum, and my apologies for not responding sooner. The waters don't mix totally, but they certainly do mix. Therefore, whatever barrier exists is not a "forbidden partition" and it does not stop them from transgressing- since they do cross it.
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10-04-2013, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 11:27 AM by KAYSER.)
Post: #10
RE: Question for Muslims about 25:53 and 55:19,20
Hello TG123

You are right, the water certainly mix. let's see at the verses together

Surah 55
50. And indeed We have distributed it (rain or water) amongst them in order that they may remember the Grace of Allâh, but most men refuse (or deny the Truth or Faith) and accept nothing but disbelief or ingratitude.
51. And had We willed, We would have raised a warner in every town.
52. So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them (by preaching) with the utmost endeavour, with it (the Qur'ân).
53. And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.
54. And it is He Who has created man from water, and has appointed for him kindred by blood, and kindred by marriage. And your Lord is Ever All-Powerful to do what He will

Here God talked about believers and disbelievers and the differences between the two and gave the analogy of the 2 seas and the differences between the two

Surah 55
16. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
17. (He is) the Lord of the two easts (places of sunrise during early summer and early winter) and the Lord of the two wests (places of sunset during early summer and early winter).
18. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
19. He has let loosed the two seas (the salt water and the sweet) meeting together.
20. Between them is a barrier which none of them can transgress.
21. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
22. Out of them both come out pearl and coral.
23. Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny?
24. And His are the ships going and coming in the seas, like mountains

Here God never said they don't mix but the word He used was Transgress, and this word had a notion of wrong and one winning over the other if it is done but not impossible. and if that happened you will have only fresh or salt water, and wont have brackish anymore

This is an opinion that I heard from somebody which I like. there are also many opinions about this, but no one knows for sure what Allah means except trying the best

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