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Sanctification of the Cross
12-11-2009, 08:30 AM
Post: #1
Sanctification of the Cross
Christians in general hold the wood of the cross in great reverence, and prostrate in worship before the paintings or image of the Godhead, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as well as making prostrations of reverence to the images of their saints.

There can be any of the following reasons for consecrating the wood of the cross: because it had a physical contact with, or was touched by, the body of Christ at the time of crucifixion; or because it became a means for their atonement, or the blood of Christ flowed over it.

Now if it is for the first reason, all the donkeys of the world should be held holier than the cross, as Christ used to ride on the back of donkeys and mules. They had more physical contact with the body of Christ and, contrary to the cross, they served the purpose of providing comfort to him. It was a donkey that carried Christ to the temple of Jerusalem. Besides, being animate, the donkey is closely associated with man as opposed to the wood of the cross which is inanimate.

As for the second reason, Judas Iscariot deserves more reverence and sanctification as it was through his betrayal that Jesus was arrested and then crucified by the Jews. Without his betrayal, atonement through the death of Christ would not have been possible. He, therefore, is the first and main cause of eternal salvation. If the sanctity of the cross is related to the third reason, the thorns that were put on the head of the Christ on the form of a crown deserve more reverence and respect, as they too were coloured with the blood of Christ.

We are unable to see any reason why only the cross is held in such great respect and reverence. Maybe it is another riddle like the trinity???

The most abhorrent and abominable thing is the act of worshipping the image of the Father-God. Visualization of Him is a physical impossibility. No human being can ever see Him. Is there any one to claim the ability to make an image bearing any degree of similarity to Him? Besides, it would be more logical for them to worship every human being as they are created in the image of God according
to the Torah.

It is strange that the Pope prostrates himself before images made of
stones, and humiliates and insults his human fellow beings by extending his feet to be kissed by them. We fail to see any difference between the Catholics and the idolaters of India.
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12-11-2009, 10:30 AM
Post: #2
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
Yes, but it was on the cross that Jesus died for man's sins. It was being nailed to it that killed him, not the donkey, not the crown, etc. That's why it's revered, as it's a symbol of his death and resurrection.

Oh, and it doesn't really work saying this in the Catholic thread, as Catholics have a long history of revering supposed nails from the crucifixion, and so on. The cross is a symbol, remember, not an idol.

You also seem to not quite understand Hindu worship of Murtis (idols as you call them, though the term is incorrect). Have a look in the Hindu section of the forum, as I have explained this there.

(I could also comment that this sort of thing is pot calling kettle black, what with Muslim reverence of a book, a city in the middle east, and causing almost riots over a cartoon picture depicting someone they're not supposed to idolise, but I'll refrain.)
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12-11-2009, 11:49 AM
Post: #3
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
(12-11-2009 08:30 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  Christians in general hold the wood of the cross in great reverence, and prostrate in worship before the paintings or image of the Godhead, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as well as making prostrations of reverence to the images of their saints.

OK, here’s 12 years of Catholic school talking…Wink

Prostration is not a normal Christian practice. It is a Muslim thing, is it not? Only the knights of the Middle Ages prostrated themselves on a regular basis as an act of humility to remind them that the authority they wielded had responsibility as well. And they did not prostrate themselves before the cross but before the altar on which rested the tabernacle holding the consecrated host. When Catholic priests are ordained they also prostrate themselves before the altar, again as an act of humility. In essence, they were prostrating themselves before God. No one ever prostrated themselves before representations of saints. The idea of praying to saints is to help bridge the unbridgeable gap between Man and God.

Representations of the cross are only symbols. Reverence is given to the idea behind the symbol, specifically the redemption of sin and the subsequent resurrection that is promised to those who accept salvation. To Catholics at least this also includes anyone who obeys God’s natural laws of morality, instilled by God in all people, whether they even know anything about Christianity or not..

The wood of the cross is not relevant. Since it is only a symbol, albeit an important one, it can be made of anything and can even be just a picture. I know that Muslims in general eschew any form of representational art. Nonetheless I have seen and even have a book showing numerous artistic representations of persons and events in the Quran, made by Muslims. They get around the charge of idolatry by putting veils on the faces of important people such as Muhammad. Symbols like this are mnemonics to help recall and embrace the important truths of faith.
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12-11-2009, 12:13 PM
Post: #4
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
(12-11-2009 11:49 AM)Parousia Wrote:  Representations of the cross are only symbols. Reverence is given to the idea behind the symbol, specifically the redemption of sin and the subsequent resurrection that is promised to those who accept salvation.

True. But in practice many Catholics don't seem to make such a fine distinction between the symbol and it's meaning. There is a long and glorious history in Catholicism of idolatrous worship of the thing itself.

I've often encountered a great disconnect between what the Church teaches, and what the laity actually believes. This makes it hard to discuss these things with Catholics because they can so easily switch between viewpoints, often in the same sentence.

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12-11-2009, 12:43 PM
Post: #5
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
(12-11-2009 12:13 PM)MerryAtheist Wrote:  True. But in practice many Catholics don't seem to make such a fine distinction between the symbol and it's meaning. There is a long and glorious history in Catholicism of idolatrous worship of the thing itself.

I've often encountered a great disconnect between what the Church teaches, and what the laity actually believes. This makes it hard to discuss these things with Catholics because they can so easily switch between viewpoints, often in the same sentence.

Either they did not have the 'advantage' Rolleyes of 12 years of Catholic school religion classes as I did, or they don't teach it the way they used to do. Now admittedly way back when I went to school there were still some old people around who remembered Jesus. Wink

Everyone ought to know the difference between a religious object and its meaning. After all, in the film Fright Night, when Roddy McDowall tries to use a crucifix on the vampire, he gets told, "You have to have faith for that to work." Tongue
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12-11-2009, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2009 01:33 PM by TruthWon.)
Post: #6
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
(12-11-2009 11:49 AM)Parousia Wrote:  
(12-11-2009 08:30 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  Christians in general hold the wood of the cross in great reverence, and prostrate in worship before the paintings or image of the Godhead, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, as well as making prostrations of reverence to the images of their saints.

OK, here’s 12 years of Catholic school talking…Wink

Prostration is not a normal Christian practice. It is a Muslim thing, is it not? Only the knights of the Middle Ages prostrated themselves on a regular basis as an act of humility to remind them that the authority they wielded had responsibility as well. And they did not prostrate themselves before the cross but before the altar on which rested the tabernacle holding the consecrated host. When Catholic priests are ordained they also prostrate themselves before the altar, again as an act of humility. In essence, they were prostrating themselves before God. No one ever prostrated themselves before representations of saints. The idea of praying to saints is to help bridge the unbridgeable gap between Man and God.

Representations of the cross are only symbols. Reverence is given to the idea behind the symbol, specifically the redemption of sin and the subsequent resurrection that is promised to those who accept salvation. To Catholics at least this also includes anyone who obeys God’s natural laws of morality, instilled by God in all people, whether they even know anything about Christianity or not..

The wood of the cross is not relevant. Since it is only a symbol, albeit an important one, it can be made of anything and can even be just a picture. I know that Muslims in general eschew any form of representational art. Nonetheless I have seen and even have a book showing numerous artistic representations of persons and events in the Quran, made by Muslims. They get around the charge of idolatry by putting veils on the faces of important people such as Muhammad. Symbols like this are mnemonics to help recall and embrace the important truths of faith.

I think you are talking about 1 general country or west that follow christianity, and dont take cross as more thn a symbol, but other many christian countries, its taken more thn symbol.
The topic said, why so much the cross is taken as importance? and why Juda is taken as traitor? he should be taken as a hero, because of him christians (as they say) attain their salvationBig Grin

For muslims, do you rely on all muslims, or just 1 book? if some idol or anything was there in muslims, there should be any idol of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as welll right? so your claim for muslims is wrong, as its statement only and no solid proof.
(12-11-2009 10:30 AM)Zagreus Wrote:  Yes, but it was on the cross that Jesus died for man's sins. It was being nailed to it that killed him, not the donkey, not the crown, etc. That's why it's revered, as it's a symbol of his death and resurrection.

Oh, and it doesn't really work saying this in the Catholic thread, as Catholics have a long history of revering supposed nails from the crucifixion, and so on. The cross is a symbol, remember, not an idol.

You also seem to not quite understand Hindu worship of Murtis (idols as you call them, though the term is incorrect). Have a look in the Hindu section of the forum, as I have explained this there.

(I could also comment that this sort of thing is pot calling kettle black, what with Muslim reverence of a book, a city in the middle east, and causing almost riots over a cartoon picture depicting someone they're not supposed to idolise, but I'll refrain.)

But as per Bible, he was not killed, and no bible verse say that he was nailed to Cross. Still the signifance of cross is not justfied by any christian.
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12-11-2009, 02:42 PM
Post: #7
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
(12-11-2009 12:43 PM)Parousia Wrote:  After all, in the film Fright Night, when Roddy McDowall tries to use a crucifix on the vampire, he gets told, "You have to have faith for that to work." Tongue

Well, if you are going to throw the Fright Night reference in my face, there is nothing left for me to do but admit defeat. You are a hard, hard debater, Sir.

Educational levels vary worldwide. It is no doubt true that in certain countries with a higher educated populace, superstitious fetishistic belief in relics is less pronounced. But in many 3rd World countries, the Catholic Church may not stand for such beliefs, but in practice does little to discourage them.

The Catholic Church has always been adept at adopting various folk superstitions and aligning them with their doctrine, but the result is an inevitable fuzziness at the margins where the old beliefs still linger.

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12-11-2009, 03:01 PM
Post: #8
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
(12-11-2009 02:42 PM)MerryAtheist Wrote:  The Catholic Church has always been adept at adopting various folk superstitions and aligning them with their doctrine, but the result is an inevitable fuzziness at the margins where the old beliefs still linger.

True, but that is an old game in religion. Read between the lines in Exodus for example and you see the Yahweh worshipping refugees from Egypt merging with the Elohim worshippers already in Israel.

My favorite syncretization is the adaptation of Christian saints and practices into the West African religion of slaves in America, giving birth to the several flavors of Voudon and Santeria. They were pretending to be Christians as their masters insisted but in fact....Big Grin
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12-11-2009, 03:10 PM
Post: #9
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
(12-11-2009 01:31 PM)TruthWon Wrote:  But as per Bible, he was not killed, and no bible verse say that he was nailed to Cross. Still the signifance of cross is not justfied by any christian.

As per Bible, he was crucified on a cross, and died:

Matt 27:31 'and led him away to crucify him'

Matt 27:42 'If he be the king of Israel, let him now come down from the cross'

Matt 27:50 'Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost'

Mark 15:27 'And with him they crucify two thieves'

Mark 15:37 'And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost'

Luke 23:46 'and having said thus, he gave up the ghost'

John 19:18 'Where they crucified him'

John 19:30 'and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

All four gospels say he died, and that he was crucified. That's the significance of the cross. (it also doesn't matter whether he was nailed or not; you can argue with historians about that one)
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12-12-2009, 08:03 AM
Post: #10
RE: Sanctification of the Cross
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