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Science measures the world.
06-12-2017, 08:06 PM
Post: #1
Science measures the world.
Only people speak of spiritual experience. Equipment will never measure God.

Luke 17;20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
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06-12-2017, 08:24 PM
Post: #2
RE: Science measures the world.
If it exists in any sense. We can measure it. We can detect human experience directly these days.
I do t see any reason to think there is anything in human experience that cant be tested scientifically, in fact i see a lot that suggests otherwise.

~~~

when we enter a discussion on matters of discordance, we should search for truth not victory, In this manner we always win, there are no losers.
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06-12-2017, 08:25 PM
Post: #3
RE: Science measures the world.
(06-12-2017 08:24 PM)PeterPants Wrote:  If it exists in any sense. We can measure it.

Anything to back that up?
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06-12-2017, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2017 08:30 PM by PeterPants.)
Post: #4
RE: Science measures the world.
Yeah the fact that for something to exist it has to have an effect on the world. If some spiritual thing interacts with human conaciousness, we can measure it. Either its measurable or it does not exist by definition.

If something is fundimentally unmeasurable, then it does not exist in any real way.

There could of course be practical limits. Like energy levels we cant achieve etc

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when we enter a discussion on matters of discordance, we should search for truth not victory, In this manner we always win, there are no losers.
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06-12-2017, 08:31 PM
Post: #5
RE: Science measures the world.
(06-12-2017 08:28 PM)PeterPants Wrote:  Yeah the fact that for aomething to exist it has to have an effect on the world. If sone soiritual thing interacta with human conaciousness, we can measure it. Either its measurable or it does not exist by definition.

If something is fundimentally unmeasurable, then it does not exist in any real way

What if the necessary equipment is not available at the moment?
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06-12-2017, 09:21 PM
Post: #6
RE: Science measures the world.
ok, so i should probably clarify my position, i realize i implied (if not said outright) things i don't actually believe.

I do not claim to know that all things are fundamentally measurable, only that as far as we can see, it seems to be the case, it seems that for a thing to have an effect in the world, it must be causally connected in a way that can be analyzed scientifically.

You seem to claim that some things are fundamentally untouchable by science, i think this is a woefully closed minded view.


Quote:What if the necessary equipment is not available at the moment?

Well of course that's almost always the case... and? so what? this has nothing to do with the claim that some things cannot be analyzed by science.
Your claim is one form a position of ignorance, its a logical fallacy. like this;

"i dont know how science could possible measure x, therefore its impossible"

Its the same as;

"i dont know how the world could exist without a God to create it, therefore there HAS to be a God who created it."

these are fallacious arguments, you can not draw a conclusion from an unknown.
My position on the other hand is that so far, whenever we look into a particular phenomena, we find that it is caused by purely materialistic things, atoms and energy patterns etc. so its rational to assume that all things are probably like this.

I cant even understand how something could possible have a real world effect without having some measurable property... how could that possibly work?

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when we enter a discussion on matters of discordance, we should search for truth not victory, In this manner we always win, there are no losers.
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06-13-2017, 08:27 AM
Post: #7
RE: Science measures the world.
Can we measure any private (exclusive) experience?

We can certainly scan the brain and see what parts are stimulated while the subject is reporting the experience but if you're not satisfied with that then what else do you propose?
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06-13-2017, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 06-13-2017 08:44 AM by Avun Jahei.)
Post: #8
RE: Science measures the world.
I think it was Galilei who said that science means "to measure the measurable and make the unmeasurable measurable". That does not include the claim though that everything unmeasurable can principally be made measurable. This claim is in fact a distinct ontological position. I do not know if this claim is true.

Allegedly a consequence of Goedel's theorem is that we can never predict what we will be able to know (or, in this case, to measure) with the advancement of our knowledge. That would mean a claim like "X is proncipally unmeasurable" would be futile, no matter how far beyond our comprehension it is.
(06-13-2017 08:27 AM)Apologes Wrote:  Can we measure any private (exclusive) experience?

We can certainly scan the brain and see what parts are stimulated while the subject is reporting the experience but if you're not satisfied with that then what else do you propose?

Who knows if one day we have a "physics of dreams"
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06-13-2017, 08:52 AM
Post: #9
RE: Science measures the world.
(06-13-2017 08:27 AM)Apologes Wrote:  Can we measure any private (exclusive) experience?

We can certainly scan the brain and see what parts are stimulated while the subject is reporting the experience but if you're not satisfied with that then what else do you propose?

Were you talking to me or Garden Rose here Apologes?

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06-13-2017, 09:49 AM
Post: #10
RE: Science measures the world.
(06-13-2017 08:52 AM)PeterPants Wrote:  Were you talking to me or Garden Rose here Apologes?

If I don't quote or specifically mention someone (eg. @someone: ...) I'm talking to the OP.
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