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Scripture Alone?
03-31-2009, 01:31 PM
Post: #1
Smile Scripture Alone?
Scripture is very very clear...
NOTE: Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
These BEREANS were MORE Noble because they listened to Paul (church) plus Scripture.

These Bereans were MORE NOBLE because they were NOT TOLD to listen to the Church!

The Bereans did NOT believe in "Scripture ALONE"!

They were MORE NOBLE because they listened anyway!
Their "OLD TESTAMENT" Scriptures do not have written."Listen to the Church"!
AS your NEW TESTAMENT does, it (the NEW TESTAMENT) tells you "LISTEN TO THE CHURCH"!!!!

The Thessalonians were LESS NOBLE they rejected the teaching of Church (Paul) but they HAVE AN EXCUSE for NOT Listening to Church: There "OLD TESTAMENT" scriptures do NOT have written."Listen to the Church"!
Your NEW TESTAMENT does, it tells you "LISTEN TO THE CHURCH"!!!
These Thessalonians were less noble because they believed in "Scripture ALONE"!

The Protestant is NOT NOBLE..... YOU!
The Protestant REJECTS the Church, they refuse to Listen to the Church.
The Protestant DOES have written in their "NEW TESTAMENT" Scriptures: "LISTEN TO THE CHURCH!"
The Protestant REJECTS the scriptures...
The Protestant rejects the words of God...
Just as Martin Luther rejected these same verses in the scriptures!!
You have NO EXCUSE as the Thessalonians did, your SCRIPTURES TELL YOU,
"Listen to the Church or be removed from the body of God, as a Pagan"!
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
NOTE.. "A PAGAN" is a person OUTSIDE of the body of God!
I hope this helps..
Dogknox
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03-31-2009, 03:23 PM
Post: #2
RE: Scripture Alone?
Um, I'm an atheist here, so it's not like I have a stake in it, but . . . that's not at all what Acts says. In fact, this is one of my favorite Biblical passages, since it stresses the need for critical thinking instead of blind obedience.

Berea was not more noble because they listened to the Church. Thessalonica listened to the Church. The "Church" at that time was the Jewish synagogue. When Paul went to Berea, he talked to them about the scriptures. The Bereans didn't believe him, but they LISTENED to him, and then they did the research themselves, looking through the scriptures. And because of this, many believed him, because they actually checked his word against the scriptures.

So the lesson here is, don't trust the church, do the work yourself.
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04-02-2009, 04:09 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2009 04:14 AM by Annolennar.)
Post: #3
RE: Scripture Alone?
Holy crap! Whats with the recent influx of Caps Lock addicts? Sad

Anywho, I think the point of this passage is that both Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition are necessary - both trust the church and do the work yourself. You're going to run into problems if you go with either approach exclusively. And thats exactly what this passage says (among other things).

Personally, I have great respect for all apostolic churches (including but not limited to the visible Catholic Church) such as the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican churches, even when I don't agree with them; because they seem to have a reliable understanding of what Scripture and Tradition are, and how we ended up with them.

My problem with Sola Scriptura is that its not historically or logically viable, not to mention that it is self-defeating, since there are too many instances of Scripture emphasizing the importance of Tradition. Historically, the Sola Scripturist has no answer to how Scripture (as a body of writings held to contain truth) came about. And logically, the Sola Scripturist has no viable reason to accept Scripture as truth, because they can only argue that "the Bible is true because it says it is true", which of course doesn't stand to reason.

This whole idea that Holy Scripture can contradict Holy Tradition is ridiculous, considering that to some extent scripture is a tradition, and that they both derive from the same sources (the authority of the Church and thus the Holy Spirit).

And then, of course, there's the whole issue of the fact that most (if not all) Sola Scripturists use cherry-picked versions of Scripture. If we can decide at any time whether something is scripture or not based on our personal views, whats the point of even having Scripture or Tradition in the first place?

Edit: Just a funny side note: As I was looking at the Greek of Acts 17, and found it quite amusing to note that the idiom used in verse 12 to mean that the women were respectable is literally translated as "well-figured". Big Grin

If you should see evident sins or defects, draw out of those thorns the rose; perceiving, moreover, that such apparent sinners may frequently have a good intention, for no one can judge the secrets of the heart of man.
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04-02-2009, 09:53 AM
Post: #4
RE: Scripture Alone?
Annolennar, your criticism of Sola Scriptura followers is dead on accurate. However, although that's what is, that's not what should be. Theoretically Sola Scriptura is based on the idea that all human institutions lack perfection. Sola Scriptura followers look at the history of, say, the Catholics (an easy target, since they're the biggest,) and despite the fact that none of those acts were actually laid down as dogma for the church they see a history of abuse and twisting the scripture to suit their own needs (as an atheist, despite my respect for you, I must confess I see the same thing.)

Sola Scripturas generally believe that scripture is God inspired, and nothing else is. They use Acts 17:11 as justification, noting that when Paul spoke the men of Berea measured his words against the scripture, and THEN they believed. However, theoretically understanding the scripture involves knowing the original languages, understanding the original culture and context of those verse (which includes, at the very least, an understanding of the Talmud and the writings of the early church fathers,) and for you to more or less be a Biblical scholar of the highest authority, because otherwise you're going to get it wrong.

The problem is that so very few people are actually Bible scholars of that degree, so they have a choice - rely on their own flawed and limited understanding of scripture, or trust someone who's actually done the work. Given that choice, most who believe in Sola Scriptura (already convinced that all humans except for them are deeply flawed and secretly want to turn the world to Satan) will rely on their own horribly flawed understanding.

To be fair, I can understand why. I'm a big fan of doing the work yourself, because I don't believe the Catholics are right and I do believe that Catholic tradition has been tainted by the intervening centuries, and is no longer accurate to the original intent of the church. But even though the Catholics might be wrong, if you don't have the scholarly background to accurately translate the scripture, in context with both itself and the world at that time without cherry picking, then you are also wrong.
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04-02-2009, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2009 09:38 PM by Dogknox.)
Post: #5
Smile RE: Scripture Alone?
Hello "ATHEIST" how are you today?
First ... A QUESTION.. You beeing an ATHEIST, what is with your FAVORITE Bible verse????
Second I must correct you...
You are wrong You said...
Quote:The Bereans didn't believe him, but they LISTENED to him, and then they did the research themselves, looking through the scriptures. And because of this, many believed him,
The verse is very clear..Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
ATHEIST.. Did you read it?
[u]for they received the message with great eagerness

The Bereans did believe him right from the start..... AND...
And they examined the "OLD TESTAMENT!"
So you are WRONG so much for your FAVORITE verse...
You should study it a little closer!
They received the message ..AND..Examined Scripture!
Not one thing about: "YOUR WORDS..The Bereans didn't believe him, but they LISTENED to him" YOU are dead WRONG!!!
!!!

Dogknox

(03-31-2009 03:23 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Um, I'm an atheist here, so it's not like I have a stake in it, but . . . that's not at all what Acts says. In fact, this is one of my favorite Biblical passages, since [color]it stresses the need for critical thinking [/color]instead of blind obedience.

Berea was not more noble because they listened to the Church. Thessalonica listened to the Church. The "Church" at that time was the Jewish synagogue. When Paul went to Berea, he talked to them about the scriptures. The Bereans didn't believe him, but they LISTENED to him, and then they did the research themselves, looking through the scriptures. And because of this, many believed him, because they actually checked his word against the scriptures.

So the lesson here is, don't trust the church, do the work yourself.

'GTseng3' You said.. Paul spoke the men of Berea measured his words against the scripture, and THEN they believed.
I REPLY: They ACCEPTED Paul's words with EAGERNESS ..AND...
And examined scriptures!
You are WRONG!
Acts 17:11 points to the Bereans as people that trusted CHURCH PLUS Scripture NOT "Scripture ALONE!"
13 When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.
These Jews from THESSALONICA rejected Paul outright...
These people were "SCRIPTURE ALONE" People...
They were LESS Noble!!!!

The Man MADE Doctrine of Scripture ALONE is "AGAINST the Church"!
The CHURCH is the body of God!
The Church is the BODY of Jesus!
Thus "Scripture ALONE" is against Jesus!
"Scripture ALONE" is ANTI-CHRIST!

The man Martin Luther made the DOCTRINE!
He was by himself, when he made it.
Just Luther and Only Luther made the doctrine!
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
God WAS NOT WITH LUTHER"
He was by himself, Luther was not with Two or Three!

Protestants abuse and twist the scripture to suit their own needs.
Scripture is CLEAR..
Ephesians 3:10
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Ephesians 5:29
After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church

Matthew 28 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
'GTseng3'
The Protestant wants to believe Jesus is committing ADULTERY with thousands of man made Protestant Churches!
They want to believe Satan somehow has OVERPOWERED God, and Satan TOOK God's body away from God!
Matthew 28:20 is very clear.. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age
God is ALWAYS with the Catholic CHURCH!

YOU SAID: Sola Scripturas generally believe that scripture is God inspired, and nothing else is.
I reply: These people believe the DOCTRINE of the Man, Martin Luther...
He INVENTED "Scripture ALONE", thus "Scripture ALONE is NOT ALONE!
It is SCRIPTURE PLUS the DOCTRINES of Luther that they believe!

Dogknox
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04-03-2009, 01:54 AM
Post: #6
RE: Scripture Alone?
You seemed to ignore the part that says "They examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." They held Paul up to the test - scripture. They didn't just blindly accept, they examined and judged. That's what the verse says.

My favorite verse is probably I Peter 3:15 -

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (my emphasis added)

Peter, according to tradition first bishop of Rome and foremost among the disciples, makes it very clear that Christians should be able to form clear arguments to answer the questions that are brought to them. Christianity without critical thinking is worthless, both to the Christian and to everyone else.
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04-03-2009, 01:44 PM
Post: #7
RE: Scripture Alone?
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
GTseng3 you said..
Quote: You seemed to ignore the part that says.. "They examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
I reply.. NO I don't ignore it... "They RECEIVED the message with eagerness..EVERYDAY!!!"!
"They RECEIVED IT EVERYDAY!" & AND & "They examined the SCRIPTURES EVERYDAY!
The KEY WORD is the word.."AND!"
This word "AND" is telling you "They RECEIVED the message with eagerness EVERY DAY!"
You said...
Quote:They didn't just blindly accept, they examined and judged. That's what the verse says.

YOU forget the CONTEXT of the Passage...
PAUL was TEACHING!
Paul was TEACHING "Christ RESURRECTED"!

The TEACHING of PAUL; (about the RESURRECTION) is NOT found in the Old Testament!

The Bereans would NEVER EVER have understood "CHRIST RESURRECTED" without Paul.. "The CHURCH"!!!

The Bereans were checking their "OLD TESTAMENT Screptures"!
There was no "NEW TESTAMENT" they did NOT have a "NEW TESTAMENT" they NEEDED a TEACHER!
They NEEDED "the CHURCH, to TEACH!
The Bereans could NEVER arrive at the truth without Paul to TEACH THEM!
Paul had the AUTHORITY of God to TEACH!
Scripture Alone tells the Protestant.. "Church has no authority to TEACH!"
Scripture Alone is a LIE!

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
GTseng3 "The THEREFORE" at the start of verse #19 is telling you "The CHURCH" has the AUTHORITY of God to TEACH all nations!

Verse #20 TELLS YOU: The CHURCH has Jesus with her.. ALWAYS, to the very end!
The Catholic Church has the AUTHORITY of God to TEACH and that is what Paul was doing!
Scripture alone takes all AUTHORITY to teach away from the Church!
The Church is the body of God.
The Church is the body of Jesus.
Taking AUTHORITY away from Jesus is "Anti-Christ!"

Jesus is with his Body ALWAYS!
The Protestant wants to believe .."Somehow Satan OVERPOWERED God, and Satan TOOK God's body away from God"!
They want to believe "Jesus is committing "Adultery" with thousands of Man made, Protestant Brides"!

The Bereans needed Paul to TEACH them, they were MORE Nobel they did NOT believe in "SCRIPTURE ALONE"!

I hope this helps..

Dogknox
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04-05-2009, 04:43 PM
Post: #8
RE: Scripture Alone?
I find your interpretation of those verses rather suspect. You seem to be stretching the meaning of words to fit them into your worldview.

To be honest, I've been out camping and running around in the wilderness for the last weekend, and I'm a bit wiped out to go spelunking in ancient languages, but maybe some research into the greek would not be amiss here to gain the true meaning.
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04-05-2009, 11:48 PM
Post: #9
RE: Scripture Alone?
GTseng3
Noooo
I think you are the one who stretches the passage.
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

"They received the message with great eagerness"!!
They received it!!!!!
The message was... TAUGHT by Paul!
The MESSAGE was "Christ RESURRECTED!" (an earlier verse in the same passage)
The MESSAGE.."Christ Resurrected" cannot be found in the "OLD TESTAMENT".. the "Old Testament" was the only scriptures they had!
The ONLY way they could come to believe "Christ Resurrected" is if someone was to TEACH the message!!!!
Paul was TEACHING, and scripture is clear, "The CHURCH has the AUTHORITY of God to TEACH all nations"!

They examined ALSO...scriptures PLUS the scriptures, AND the scriptures, The "AND, the PLUS, the ALSO tell you: They did NOT believe in "Scriptures ALONE!!"
"They received the message with great eagerness"!!

IF they believed in "Scripture Alone" then it would have read...
(***Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, because they examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.)
It does NOT say this,(above ***) it says..they received the message with great eagerness AND..... PLUS......ALSO the scriptures!!!

NOTE it does NOT say; the scriptures they examined helped them RECEIVE Pauls message!
It says.. "They received the message"....the scriptures might not have helped them one bit, all it says is the examined the scriptures!
It does NOT say.. "The scriptures TOLD them Pauls message was true!"
They looked at the scriptures maybe the scriptures did not help them see a thing!
BUT we know with NO doubt "They received the Message of Paul!"

The Thessalonians were "LESS NOBLE" because they rejected Paul!
These people, these "LESS NOBLE" people, were "Scripture Alone" people!

The Protestant is "NOT NOBLE!"
The Protestant has the "NEW TESTAMENT" and it tells them.."Listen to the CHURCH"!
They reject the Church, thus they reject the "NEW TESTAMENT!"
The Thessalonians has an EXCUSE for not listening to Paul...
They were not told in their OLD TESTAMENT .."Listen to the Church", as the Protestant does!

Dogknox
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04-06-2009, 10:02 AM
Post: #10
RE: Scripture Alone?
I half suspect that you're just using my arguments to plug into a copied and pasted set you have.

BUT, this is one of my favorite verses, so just for my own benefit I did the research in Greek anyway, now that I've had a night's sleep.

"With great eagerness" means that they did not reject the teachings, that they took them in, like someone would take something into their hand. In other words, Paul gave them the word, and they took the word.

Now it gets fun. "Examined" in this passage is anakrino, which is quite specifically tied to "investigate" or "interrogate" as it relates to a judge in a court case. So what they're saying is they took Paul's word (rather than immediately rejecting it as did the Thessalonians), and then they put it on trial. They set themselves up as judges of Paul's word.

Like I say, reading the Bible in English can lead to misinformation. The original languages usually are far more telling.
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