Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
04-25-2017, 06:17 PM
Post: #51
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
Hm, as this is the Shia section I'll have to word myself carefully.

In response to Splendor, the abundance of hadith and historical evidence supports the idea that Abu Bakr was a rightful successor. Ali did not contest it visibly, and he was appointed by the people, as Muhammad required it to be.

A lot of Shiism's claims are based on (I speak here as neutrally as possible) unverifiable transmissions, and on claims about historical figures of the past which are unverifiable, such as claims that Ali believed things which cannot be proven he believed, because he outwardly acted in ways seemingly contrary to those secret beliefs.

Now Shia Islam might still be true, but those facts are simple and not entirely anti-Shia either. However it makes it seem to non-Shiites that Sunni Islam has the upper hand automatically.

But now comes a defense of some Shiite sentiments:

Ali was one of the rightfully appointed caliphs, the fourth, but Muawiyah made civil war against Ali, because he sought the caliphate. Ali died before Muawiyah won, so his son Hasan was appointed caliph. But Muawiyah defeated Hasan and forced him to give up the caliphate. Hasan did that on the condition that Muawiyah did not appoint as his successor his own son. Muawiyah agreed but then went against his word, and when he died, his son was appointed. This made Hasan's brother Husayn consider Muawiyah's Umayyad Caliphate illegitimate and with good motive. The Shiites probably are right that what Muawiyah did was in a sense wrong. In that sense, the OP is not entirely wrong that the Caliphate was usurped by the Umayyads when it belonged to Ali and Hasan.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-25-2017, 09:44 PM
Post: #52
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
Good post shiver
There are a lot of indications that the prophet wanted Abu baker to be the successor. Very simple ones:

1. While the prophet was on his sickness, he ordered people to let Abu baker lead the prayers.
2. A woman came to the prophet before the year he died, and asked him to do something for her. He asked her to come back next year. The woman asked, "how about if I don't find you?" He told her to come to Abu baker.....and many more

Click Here to know more about Islam
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-26-2017, 11:13 AM
Post: #53
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(04-25-2017 05:36 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  I forgive you.

There is nothing to forgive. We are all ignorant about certain things, so, it is not an insult

(04-25-2017 05:36 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  I am sorry if all of the above seems stupid to you.

Not at all. I don't find it to be stupid, just ignorance. you have to know the following about different narrations (not versions) of the Quran

1. It is not something new that you or someone else came up with, The Prophet told us about it 1400 years ago
2. They are not versions of Quran, they are different narrations. meaning, the different ways of saying words in different parts of Arabia
3. They are all acceptable by all Muslims, and you go to any mosque you find most of them present
4. I read them all, and most Muslims read them with no problems
5. Different narrations never in any way have different meanings of verses

Click Here to know more about Islam
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-27-2017, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 04-27-2017 07:44 AM by FilmFlaneur.)
Post: #54
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(04-26-2017 11:13 AM)KAYSER Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 05:36 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  I forgive you.

There is nothing to forgive. We are all ignorant about certain things, so, it is not an insult

If an offence is perceived I will forgive it, just as I choose, but thank you. It is not up to you to decide whether or not a person has perceived an insult.

Quote: I don't find it to be stupid, just ignorance. you have to know the following about different narrations (not versions) of the Quran

I do, and explain what is involved. The bottom line is this - that if there are seven versions of your book, even if approved, slight differences, then things have been changed. It of course not up to me to tell you whether the differences are to the good or bad, preferable or less desirable in each case; it is enough to show that they exist to make the point.

Quote:1. It is not something new that you or someone else came up with, The Prophet told us about it 1400 years ago

Then you ought to be aware of it.

Quote:2. They are not versions of Quran, they are different narrations. meaning, the different ways of saying words in different parts of Arabia

See below for my view on the versions. Meanwhile, let us see what is said:

"Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab: ... (Muhammad said) "This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways (ahruf), so recite of it whichever is easier for you." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 514)

And ultimately one man's 'different ways of saying', when systemised, is another's version.

Quote:3. They are all acceptable by all Muslims, and you go to any mosque you find most of them present

In which case, why do you now say:


Quote: 4. I read them all, and most [my emphasis] Muslims read them with no problems
?

'Most' Muslims reading them without problems as you say, is not ALL... so which are you asking us to believe?

Quote:5. Different narrations never in any way have different meanings of verses

Never the less they are different, or changed, which is the exact point; from one to the other.

The fact is that the Qur'an has come to us through many transmitted versions. You cannot recite or read the Qur'an except through one of these versions. Each version has its own chain of narrators (isnad) like a hadith. Subhii al-Saalih (Muhaahith fii `Ulum al-Qur'aan, Beirut: Daar al-`Ilm li al-Malaayiin, 1967, for instance, helpfully summarizes the frequent differences into seven categories:

Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).
Differences in consonants.
Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.
Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.
Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.
Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.
Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.
We can also add to this list the difference in the status of the Basmalah.

All of the Islamic evidence shows there are different canonical versions of the Qur'an used around the world today. They differ in their basic letters, diacritical dots, vowels, and the Basmalah; and these change the meaning of words and sentences. Therefore how the Qur'an is recited around the world today is different; i.e. not all Qur'ans are identical.. Islamic scholars record at least 50 different readings/qira'at/vocalisations systems that had developed for Uthman's Qur'an alone.

I realise this may be hard for some Muslims to accept because in their culture they have grown up being taught there is only one Qur'an, however, this is the fault of Islamic leaders who continue to exaggerate about the Qur'an. The claim that these differences are just a matter of dialect and do not affect the meaning at all is false.

Nothing comes from nothing, cowboy. - Tex Nihilo
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-27-2017, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 04-27-2017 11:51 AM by KAYSER.)
Post: #55
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  It is not up to you to decide whether or not a person has perceived an insult.

I never said it is up to me. I just explained what is I mean by saying Ignorant. It is totally up to you how you feel. If you get offended with something that was not an insult, me telling you how you feel is not what you need. What you need is a professional help.

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  I do, and explain what is involved. The bottom line is this - that if there are seven versions of your book, even if approved, slight differences, then things have been changed. It of course not up to me to tell you whether the differences are to the good or bad, preferable or less desirable in each case; it is enough to show that they exist to make the point.

For the second time, They are not called versions, they are called readings or narrations.... ok let's talk logic here

The Quran existed 1400 years ago
It came through the Prophet Mohammed PBUH
He told us there are seven narrations

the question here is, When and by who was the Quran Changed?

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  let us see what is said:

"Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab: ... (Muhammad said) "This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways (ahruf), so recite of it whichever is easier for you." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 514)

And ultimately one man's 'different ways of saying', when systemised, is another's version.

This is funny LOL
How do Americans and Austoralians pronounce the word "Today"? totally different, does that mean they have a different versions of the English language! and does each have different meaning! Ha Ha Ha

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  'Most' Muslims reading them without problems as you say, is not ALL... so which are you asking us to believe?

Am I asking you to believe in the Quran at all! are you making up stories now, Film? anyway, If you want to believe in the Quran, Choose any narration you like. You are trying to create a problem with the Quran that doesn't exist

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).
Differences in consonants.
Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.
Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.
Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.
Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.
Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.

I feel you just copy/paste this part from the internet, then to have fruitful discussion, Give me an example of each so We can chat about it

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  We can also add to this list the difference in the status of the Basmalah.

Here, your ignorance about the topic is loud and clear. This is not an issue of different narrations. Can you tell me what "Basmalah is please?

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  All of the Islamic evidence shows there are different canonical versions of the Qur'an used around the world today. They differ in their basic letters, diacritical dots, vowels, and the Basmalah; and these change the meaning of words and sentences. Therefore how the Qur'an is recited around the world today is different; i.e. not all Qur'ans are identical.. Islamic scholars record at least 50 different readings/qira'at/vocalisations systems that had developed for Uthman's Qur'an alone.

As I said, We know there are different narrations of the Quran, it is not a news for us, but 50, LOL I would like to see examples please. At the end of the day, the different ways of reciting the Quran DOES NOT produce different meanings in any way. We can discuss more when you back up your claim and give examples

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  I realise this may be hard for some Muslims to accept because in their culture they have grown up being taught there is only one Qur'an, however, this is the fault of Islamic leaders who continue to exaggerate about the Qur'an. The claim that these differences are just a matter of dialect and do not affect the meaning at all is false.

Again, Back your claim up with examples





Click Here to know more about Islam
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
04-27-2017, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 04-27-2017 02:44 PM by Splendor.)
Post: #56
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(04-21-2017 05:58 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  As for not changing a letter of the Qu'ran why bother when you can have whole variant readings?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Variant-Reading...565644204 .

According to Islam, The Quran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God.

In this ROTW section for Islam, you are not allowed to debate against any widely-held Islamic belief.
(04-21-2017 10:55 AM)KAYSER Wrote:  Yes, he did. And he told us there is always a group that is right. Btw, your link doesn't work. The variant Quran thingy, I can't help except to LOL at that dude. You are ignorant

According to Islam, The Quran has the unaltered and direct words of God.

Kay, you know that in this ROTW section for Islam, Film is not allowed to debate against any widely-held Islamic belief.

So then, Kay, why have you trolled Film into taking your bait, which has led him to violate this chat room's rule of no arguing against any widely-held Islamic belief in this ROTW section for Islam?

"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts" - William Shakespeare
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Yesterday, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 10:41 AM by FilmFlaneur.)
Post: #57
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  It is not up to you to decide whether or not a person has perceived an insult.

I never said it is up to me. I just explained what is I mean by saying Ignorant. It is totally up to you how you feel. If you get offended with something that was not an insult, me telling you how you feel is not what you need. What you need is a professional help.

If it is up to me, and I say I see insult, than I rest my case. Fortunately I do not visit religious boards expecting not to be insulted by the faithful. And I hope that your last sentence is not suggesting that I need a counselling or whatever, for that would make my feelings stronger. You are however quite right: I don't need you to tell me how I feel.


(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  I do, and explain what is involved. The bottom line is this - that if there are seven versions of your book, even if approved, slight differences, then things have been changed. It of course not up to me to tell you whether the differences are to the good or bad, preferable or less desirable in each case; it is enough to show that they exist to make the point.

Quote:For the second time, They are not called versions, they are called readings or narrations....

Since we have been reminded us, rightly, that one cannot argue against the truth of Islam here I am happy to leave it here. But it can be observed that the fact that different versions of the truth exist does not necessarily invalidate it overall, if that is what is worrying you (for instance different Bible editions exist which are still said to hold eternal truths of their own) let alone the fact that I have not - here- argued this is the case; merely against your claim that the Qu'ran has not been changed at all, even when a tradition of a whole range of alternates are readily admitted.

Take this rather startling image, for instance:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=d...jaxhist=0

Where the 'alternate reading' takes up almost as much space as the 'unchanged text'! And so on.

But don't take my word for it:



•"Lists of the differences between the two transmissions [of the Qu'ran] are long, ... (however) The simple fact is that none of the differences, whether vocal (vowel and diacritical points) or graphic (basic letter), between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. Many are differences which do not change the meaning at all, and the rest are differences with an effect on meaning in the immediate context of the text itself , but without any significant wider influence on Muslim thought. One difference (Q. 2/184) has an effect on the meaning that might conceivably be argued to have wider ramifications." (Adrian Brockett, `The Value of the Hafs and Warsh transmissions for the Textual History of the Qur'an', Approaches to the History of the Interpretation of the Qur'an, ed. Andrew Rippin; Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1988, p 34,37)

and then we have that troublesome word 'version' popping up, from academics who presumably ought to know more than I:

"•"...the Reading of Abu `Amr in the version of al-Duri ... prevails in the Sudan, Nigeria, and Central Africa." (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al, Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 84)

Your observation that, yes, the Qu'ran does not have the same 'readings', or 'narrations', everywhere still leads to the obvious point: that what is not the same is, by definition... different.

Nothing comes from nothing, cowboy. - Tex Nihilo
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Today, 02:57 AM (This post was last modified: Today 11:09 AM by KAYSER.)
Post: #58
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(04-27-2017 02:36 PM)Splendor Wrote:  According to Islam, The Quran has the unaltered and direct words of God.

Kay, you know that in this ROTW section for Islam, Film is not allowed to debate against any widely-held Islamic belief.

So then, Kay, why have you trolled Film into taking your bait, which has led him to violate this chat room's rule of no arguing against any widely-held Islamic belief in this ROTW section for Islam?

Excuse me!
He came to Islam section and said Quran is changed and I defended that. Do you call that "trolled him"!



(Yesterday 10:36 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  If it is up to me, and I say I see insult, than I rest my case. Fortunately I do not visit religious boards expecting not to be insulted by the faithful. And I hope that your last sentence is not suggesting that I need a counselling or whatever, for that would make my feelings stronger.

you can say it is an insult all day long, It is my right to explain what I mean... take it or leave it, then it is up to you

(Yesterday 10:36 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  You are however quite right: I don't need you to tell me how I feel

Good job figuring that out Smile bravo


(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  Since we have been reminded us, rightly, that one cannot argue against the truth of Islam here I am happy to leave it here. But it can be observed that the fact that different versions of the truth exist does not necessarily invalidate it overall, if that is what is worrying you (for instance different Bible editions exist which are still said to hold eternal truths of their own) let alone the fact that I have not - here- argued this is the case; merely against your claim that the Qu'ran has not been changed at all, even when a tradition of a whole range of alternates are readily admitted.

however, you didn't leave it at that

(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  Take this rather startling image, for instance:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view=d...jaxhist=0

Where the 'alternate reading' takes up almost as much space as the 'unchanged text'! And so on.

But don't take my word for it:

I don't know what am I suppose to understand from this image. Can you give me the same page with a "different" quran so I can see the difference?


(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  •"Lists of the differences between the two transmissions [of the Qu'ran] are long, ... (however) The simple fact is that none of the differences, whether vocal (vowel and diacritical points) or graphic (basic letter), between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. Many are differences which do not change the meaning at all, and the rest are differences with an effect on meaning in the immediate context of the text itself , but without any significant wider influence on Muslim thought. One difference (Q. 2/184) has an effect on the meaning that might conceivably be argued to have wider ramifications." (Adrian Brockett, `The Value of the Hafs and Warsh transmissions for the Textual History of the Qur'an', Approaches to the History of the Interpretation of the Qur'an, ed. Andrew Rippin; Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1988, p 34,37)

and then we have that troublesome word 'version' popping up, from academics who presumably ought to know more than I:

"•"...the Reading of Abu `Amr in the version of al-Duri ... prevails in the Sudan, Nigeria, and Central Africa." (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran: A History of the First Recorded Version, tr. B. Weis, et al, Princeton, New Jersey: The Darwin Press, 1975, p. 84)

Your observation that, yes, the Qu'ran does not have the same 'readings', or 'narrations', everywhere still leads to the obvious point: that what is not the same is, by definition... different.

As I said, All these are copy paste blah, blah from the internet. for the 2nd time, Give me examples if you really know what you are talking about.

and you completely ignored my questions, but still you ignoring them doesn't make them go away.......

- You claimed that there is a difference in Basmalah in different "versions" of the Quran, I asked, What is a Basmalah? and how is it different?

- If Quran was revealed 1400 years ago through the Prophet, and He told us there are different readings of it, you claimed it is changed, Who changed the Quran?

- Where are the examples I asked you to provide?

Click Here to know more about Islam
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Today, 11:01 AM
Post: #59
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(Today 02:57 AM)KAYSER Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 02:36 PM)Splendor Wrote:  According to Islam, The Quran has the unaltered and direct words of God.

Kay, you know that in this ROTW section for Islam, Film is not allowed to debate against any widely-held Islamic belief.

So then, Kay, why have you trolled Film into taking your bait, which has led him to violate this chat room's rule of no arguing against any widely-held Islamic belief in this ROTW section for Islam?

Excuse me!
He came to Islam section and said Quran is changed and I defended that. Do you call that "trolled him"! I think you better zip it

Kay, I respect the good job you do at defending your beliefs. You are right here as a Muslim in this chat room's Islam ROTW section, neither I nor anybody else is allowed here to attack your Islamic faith; I shall now zip it. Wink

"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts" - William Shakespeare
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Today, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: Today 11:08 AM by KAYSER.)
Post: #60
RE: Simply Shia Muslim believes that Islam was hijaked!
(Today 11:01 AM)Splendor Wrote:  
(Today 02:57 AM)KAYSER Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 02:36 PM)Splendor Wrote:  According to Islam, The Quran has the unaltered and direct words of God.

Kay, you know that in this ROTW section for Islam, Film is not allowed to debate against any widely-held Islamic belief.

So then, Kay, why have you trolled Film into taking your bait, which has led him to violate this chat room's rule of no arguing against any widely-held Islamic belief in this ROTW section for Islam?

Excuse me!
He came to Islam section and said Quran is changed and I defended that. Do you call that "trolled him"! I think you better zip it

Kay, I respect the good job you do at defending your beliefs. You are right here as a Muslim in this chat room's Islam ROTW section, neither I nor anybody else is allowed here to attack your Islamic faith; I shall now zip it. Wink

Since you took it nicely, now I feel bad for using this language. I will delete it

Click Here to know more about Islam
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Is Shia Muslim? vonason 16 8,252 10-29-2012 10:15 PM
Last Post: DangerTrue
Question Shia Part 1:Basic Beliefs valipour 8 5,296 05-03-2010 11:37 AM
Last Post: valipour
  Shia Part2:The Son of the Prophet Was Killed-Why? valipour 3 1,595 04-29-2010 08:27 PM
Last Post: valipour
  All Shia websites in one kamal 2 13,049 04-28-2010 06:51 AM
Last Post: valipour



User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)