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Testing Prayer
08-26-2009, 07:33 PM
Post: #1
Testing Prayer
Allow me to start out with a few verses from the bible.

Matt 7:7 - "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Matt 17:20 - "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. "

Matt 21:21 - "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Mark 11:24 - "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. "

John 14:12-14 - "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

So there we have it, a number of verses listed across three of the four gospels.

Tonight I will be praying to christian god, for the first time in many years. My prayer will be, as sincere as I can make it without actually believing, that all people with cancer be cured, and all amputees miraculously regrow their limbs.

I would appreciate it if a few people with more "faith" than myself could join me, just to make this experiment more viable.

My hypothesis is that the results shall not occur as asked, thus indicating that Jesus was less than honest in these verses, thus making him dishonest, thus making it impossible for him to be god (who does not lie).

I look forward to either proving or disproving my hypothesis by morning.

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08-26-2009, 09:52 PM
Post: #2
RE: Testing Prayer
(08-26-2009 07:33 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Tonight I will be praying to christian god, for the first time in many years. My prayer will be, as sincere as I can make it without actually believing, that all people with cancer be cured, and all amputees miraculously regrow their limbs.

hahaha
what is your real intent in praying?

(08-26-2009 07:33 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  I would appreciate it if a few people with more "faith" than myself could join me, just to make this experiment more viable.

what is your real intent?

(08-26-2009 07:33 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  My hypothesis is that the results shall not occur as asked, thus indicating that Jesus was less than honest in these verses, thus making him dishonest, thus making it impossible for him to be god (who does not lie).

I look forward to either proving or disproving my hypothesis by morning.

does the observer affect the observation?
your real INTENT sucks...thus your experiment shall fail GT.
keep praying you poor baptist/atheist hybrid.
pathetic really.
you really are conflicted, aren't you?

namaste

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

CodeX4 and the Reconciliation of Science and Religion
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/about/
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08-26-2009, 10:33 PM
Post: #3
RE: Testing Prayer
If you look at the context of those quotes, it is always the disciples being told those things, not the general public. This is presumably a combination pep talk / spiritually arming up. The power to perform miracles was to impress others into believing their stories when they went preaching throughout "the nations". We see in the various writings of Paul and in Luke's Acts that the disciples are stated to have indeed performed miracles.

Once again, the clear contextual specific meaning got turned into universal metaphor by preachers looking for more and more topics for sermons. Big Grin
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08-27-2009, 12:43 AM
Post: #4
RE: Testing Prayer
And yet again, Parousia, if one was to apply your remarkable level of insight and scholarly interpretation to the bible, then one would be forced to acknowledge that it is not sacred or divinely inspired at all, and thus the question would be moot.

Every group that believes the bible is in any way accurate also believes that Jesus's teachings on prayer to the disciples were meant to be universal to all Christians. Something that is remarkably easy to test empirically.

To be honest, though I certainly expect the experiment to show that there is no answer to prayer, I will be hoping that I am wrong. What a wonderful thing if suddenly all cancer patients were cured, and all amputees received their limbs once more!

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08-27-2009, 06:02 AM (This post was last modified: 08-27-2009 06:21 AM by catholicstation.)
Post: #5
RE: Testing Prayer
(08-27-2009 12:43 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  And yet again, Parousia, if one was to apply your remarkable level of insight and scholarly interpretation to the bible, then one would be forced to acknowledge that it is not sacred or divinely inspired at all, and thus the question would be moot.

Every group that believes the bible is in any way accurate also believes that Jesus's teachings on prayer to the disciples were meant to be universal to all Christians. Something that is remarkably easy to test empirically.

To be honest, though I certainly expect the experiment to show that there is no answer to prayer, I will be hoping that I am wrong. What a wonderful thing if suddenly all cancer patients were cured, and all amputees received their limbs once more!

Saint Anthony of Padua
Anthony became known as the wonder worker; he healed a severed limb, raised a child to life, fed the poor, and cured the sick.
http://www.scya.org.au/st_anthony.php

1 Corinthians 12 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1 Corinthians 12 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
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08-27-2009, 06:16 AM
Post: #6
RE: Testing Prayer
(08-27-2009 12:43 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  And yet again, Parousia, if one was to apply your remarkable level of insight and scholarly interpretation to the bible, then one would be forced to acknowledge that it is not sacred or divinely inspired at all, and thus the question would be moot.

Actually this particular post of mine for once does NOT say that. Jesus tells his disciples, a select few, that they can perform miracles. And according to subsequent scriptures, they do. Nowhere does it say that everyone can perform miracles just for the asking so any test of that hypothesis can be expected to fail. In this area, the Bible is consistent with itself and with present day reality. The catch is that many people believe the Bible says things that it in fact does not say. Those beliefs are testable.
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08-27-2009, 06:45 AM (This post was last modified: 08-27-2009 06:55 AM by Raphael.)
Post: #7
RE: Testing Prayer
(08-27-2009 06:02 AM)catholicstation Wrote:  Saint Anthony of Padua
Anthony became known as the wonder worker; he healed a severed limb, raised a child to life, fed the poor, and cured the sick.
http://www.scya.org.au/st_anthony.php

wow such wondrous claims...
Proof that is 1000 years old, from a time when few knew how to read and write...

We have yet to sort out the miracles re: 911 ... sorry I just can't accept lies/miracles that are 1000 years old, documented by the Church or the US government.
(do you see a pattern by those in power...do they/would they lie to retain their position?)

Forget St. Anthony ... what about the modern day heroes among 6 billion?

What did Einstein (the science god many worship), say about the mortal man called Gandhi?
Quote:“Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon this earth.”

The miracle of Gandhi was he chased the British OUT of India using non-violence...
Just like the non-violent history of the Catholic Church? ...hahahaha

Did Mother Teresa perform any of these miracles that GT prays for (as evidence of a god) and that St. Anthony performed?
Any documentation...videos...pictures etc.?

YES Mother Teresa looked after the poor and destitute in Calcutta, raising the spirits of those she tended to...but did she ever manage to cure leprosy without anti-biotics?

You folks take too much of this crap literally.

I will pray for all of ewe.
I will pray for a miracle.
Praying

Besides Annie Sullivan, how many of the miracle workers throughout Christian history have been women?

I wonder if Annie Sullivan or Helen Keller prayed for a miracle?
Maybe Helen Keller should find herself a messiah to lance in the side?
You folks can see......but EWE are blind to the truth.

namaste

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

CodeX4 and the Reconciliation of Science and Religion
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/about/
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08-27-2009, 06:58 AM (This post was last modified: 08-27-2009 07:18 AM by catholicstation.)
Post: #8
RE: Testing Prayer
(08-27-2009 06:45 AM)Raphael Wrote:  
(08-27-2009 06:02 AM)catholicstation Wrote:  Saint Anthony of Padua
Anthony became known as the wonder worker; he healed a severed limb, raised a child to life, fed the poor, and cured the sick.
http://www.scya.org.au/st_anthony.php

wow such wondrous claims...
Proof that is 1000 years old, from a time when few knew how to read and write...

We have yet to sort out the miracles re: 911 ... sorry I just can't accept lies/miracles that are 1000 years old, documented by the Church or the US government.
(see a pattern by those in power...do they/would they lie to retain their position?)

Forget St. Anthony ... what about the modern day heroes among 6 billion?

What did Einstein (the science god many worship), say about the mortal man called Gandhi?
Quote:“Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon this earth.”

The miracle of Gandhi was he chased the British OUT of India using non-violence...
Just like the history of the Church... hahahaha

Did Mother Teresa perform any of these miracles that GT prays for (as evidence of a god) and that St. Anthony performed?

yes...looking after the poor in Calcutta...but did she ever manage to cure leprosy without anti-biotics?

You fellas take too much of this crap literally, it even manages to negate the verbal diarrhea of smart intelligent folk like Parousia.

I shall pray for all of ewe.
Praying

namaste

MIRACLES OF LOURDES
http://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml

Eucharistic Miracles
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

Incorrupt Corpses
http://listverse.com/2007/08/21/top-10-i...t-corpses/

Father Pio's Miracles
http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices....racles.htm

Luke 16 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
--------------------------------------------
Believe what YOU want Big Grin
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08-27-2009, 09:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-27-2009 10:16 AM by Raphael.)
Post: #9
RE: Testing Prayer
(08-27-2009 06:58 AM)catholicstation Wrote:  Believe what YOU want Big Grin

you seem to miss the point...in a big way.
Catholics and their reputation for recording miracles as a means to posit themselves higher than me are the problem.

i.e.
if my belief system does not produce miracles, my belief, my crutch must be suspect?
why do the funnyandmentalist evangelical folk often perpetuate this 'drama' on a stage?

I only want to suggest that it is the will of the individual that is critical to the miracle.
This will can be reinforced using many many many different methods.
Even DRUGS like DMT which forms the backbone of LSD.
And miracles are NOT solely the domain of the RC Church.

i.e. what does the Buddha say of miracles?
Eh?

Quote:If a wicked man can become a pure religious man, this according to Buddhism, is a practical miracle.

In every religion we hear of miracles being performed by either the founders of these religious or by some of their disciples.

the Buddha replied that there were three kinds of supernormal levels:

1. The marvel of supernormal power to appear as many persons, to pass through walls, to fly through the air, walk on water. All these are physical actions the ordinary people cannot perform.
2. The supernormal power to read other people's minds.
3. The supernormal power to be able to guide people according to their mental development, for their own good, using suitable methods that fit these people.

But here is the part I really like...the Buddha disses 'Jesus the magician'

Quote:He taught that a monk who displays the first two supernormal powers for their own sake in order to impress people, is no different from the performance of a shaman or a magician. The Buddha said that a monk who practices such worldly miracles is a source of shame, humiliation and disgust. This is because such actions may impress and win converts and followers, but they do not help them put an end to their suffering.

Suggesting that the Pope pushing the Jesus agenda, who is a magician according to the Buddha, is a black/white magician himself?

And this next quote...here is the kind of advice that makes too much sense...lost on folks like you?

Quote:The third kind of supernormal power which the Buddha calls "the miracle of instruction" helps people to get rid of suffering. This is the only supernormal power that is fit to be practiced and is encouraged and praised by the Buddha.

More buddha wisdom found here?
http://www.parami.org/buddhistanswers/wh...racles.htm

...believe what EWE will catholicstation.
Praying keep praying for those miracles while others suffer all around you...
the guy who walks on water but people still suffer?
the guy who walked on the moon, BILLIONS spent, people still suffer?
the guy IN THE FUTURE who walks through the TIME TUNNEL/Worm Hole at CERN ... billions and billions will have been spent can only mean one thing, ... billions of people in the future will continue to suffer?

Just like the Vatican...the Emerald City...or any church...which surrounds itself with pain and suffering...the Vatican which launched a smear camPAIN lasting centuries using Jesus as its poster boy, to help spread its message?
The LIES just keep getting bigger and bigger, as truth is veiled.

Catholics/Christians/Jews/Muslims...are NOT special nor CHOSEN ... to believe such drivel sets EWE apart.
TRUE
IMHO
EWE are being used to perpetuate a self-serving mantra, that benefits a small percentage of human beings...those that do NOT believe in Jesus...
nice twist eh?

[Image: chirality.jpg]

I shall put my two chiral asymmetric hands together and pray.
Praying

What in hell does chiral asymmetry mean?
How in FACT does chiral and asymmetry relate to the act of prayer and the word namaste?
What is the significance of putting your two chiral asymmetric hands together, bowing down, facing a fellow human being, nodding your head, and saying the word 'namaste' mean on the quantum level?
EHHH?
How would an award winning NOBEL scientist in physics, awarded his prize in 2008 re: asymmetry, answer my questions?
http://kachina2012.wordpress.com/2008/07...hand-path/

namaste

p.s. think about this catholicstation.
Why is the RIGHT hand mentioned MANY times in the Bible, but the LEFT is rarely mentioned?
The LEFT hand representing the goats, and the RIGHT hand representing the sheep, placed together?
I shall pray for ALL of EWE sheeple and sacrificial goats on the day of judgment...just like your bible narrative suggests...

NATURE cannot be HIDDEN only VEILeD with NARRATIVES that defy NATURE

CodeX4 and the Reconciliation of Science and Religion
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08-27-2009, 12:19 PM
Post: #10
RE: Testing Prayer
Neither the BBC nor CNN has reported the miraculous healing of cancer patients and amputees.

Thanks to Parousia's insights I cannot claim that this means there is no god, but I can claim at least that he does not answer prayer.

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