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The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
08-07-2017, 05:23 AM
Post: #1
The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
why is it so difficult to comprehend the notation that... everything's are created, except God. that He always be... everything rooted from Him, why is that difficult? do you have other notation?
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08-07-2017, 06:03 AM
Post: #2
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
(08-07-2017 05:23 AM)shafri Wrote:  why is it so difficult to comprehend the notation that... everything's are created, except God. that He always be... everything rooted from Him, why is that difficult? do you have other notation?
The correct word is notion, not "notation." There are those of us who perceive God in the underlying cause of our perception of reality, indeed. The Point is what to make with it. Do you use it to knock others down, or would you opt to use it to build the world up around you and make it a better place?

..
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08-07-2017, 06:11 AM
Post: #3
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
Its an easy notion to understand, i understand it just fine. I simply dismiss it.
I have no reason to take that idea seriously, why would some things have to have a cause, while 'god' does not? I merely assume that other possibilities exist, i don't pretend to know something i don't.
Maybe everything always was, in one form or another. Perhaps time itself is circular, maybe everything is simulated, who knows? No one.
Some people think they know, sure. But after thousands of years, millions of attempts, no one has been able to give a shred of concrete evidence in this area.

So why should i take it seriously?

~~~

when we enter a discussion on matters of discordance, we should search for truth not victory, In this manner we always win, there are no losers.
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08-07-2017, 06:34 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 03:25 PM by Herminator.)
Post: #4
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
(08-07-2017 05:23 AM)shafri Wrote:  why is it so difficult to comprehend the notation that... everything's are created, except God. that He always be... everything rooted from Him, why is that difficult? do you have other notation?

My cat can eat a bowl of alphabet soup and sh*t a better argument than that....

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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08-07-2017, 07:12 AM
Post: #5
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
For something to exist, it must have some specific attributes. It must be something. Otherwise it does not exist after all. Repeat: a supposed something that in fact is not some particular thing is not something after all. It is nothing and does not exist. Whether its attributes change over time does not matter. At any time, it has some specific attributes. It is always something in particular. Its existence consists of what it is.

Being a necessary existent does not change that. If it exists it is something in particular. If it is not the only necessary existent it may have different attributes from other necessary existents. It may be that (logically) prior influences determined its specific attributes.

But if all existents taken together do not account for all possible attributes, the question arises as to why there is a bias toward some possibilities to the exclusion of others. Either prior influences avoid or suppress those missing possibilities or the missing attributes are somehow incompatible with existence. The latter would mean they are not possible after all, which contradicts the assumption that there are possible attributes that are not accounted for.

The remaining alternative is that prior influences suppress those missing alternatives. This in turn leads to the question as to why the prior influences are structured in such a way as to suppress certain possibilities while allowing others. Either that is the result of even more prior influences or once again the supposed possible is really impossible, contradicting the assumption. An infinite regress of prior influences resolves nothing. The question would remain as to why the entire chain of influences is structured that way instead of some other way.

There must be an end point to the prior influences. (And remember we are talking about logically prior, which would include accounting for the structure of an infinite chain.) There must be something that accounts for the missing possibilities without recourse to anything else. The obvious question arises as to why this primal reason should exclude specific possibilities and not others. There are plainly no prior influences to blame. Whatever it is that leads to this result must be inherent in the nature of existence itself. If that is the case, then everything that exists must share this nature.

When the traditional picture of a conscious volitional creator God as the origin of all existence is viewed in this way, a problem appears. Those attributes of consciousness etc. would need to be inherent in the nature of existence since the original existent has them with no prior influences possible. However, most things that exist do not possess those attributes. We can conclude that the traditional picture of God does not work.

If instead we take the reason for existence to be the simple principle that existence is nothing other than being possible, all these problem go away. All possible existents do exist in fact. There are no missing possibilities to account for. And neither does existence need to have arbitrary characteristics other than the instantiation of possibility. Since different sets of possibilities have different ramifications, each possibility set must exist independently of the others. That is, each possibility set is a separate universe.

The possibility of a multiverse satisfying all possible logical configurations has already appeared in both philosophy and physics. To consider only physics for the moment, the physical laws that have been developed account very well for the behavior of physical realty. But they require 19 physical constants of apparently arbitrary value that as far as anyone knows could have been different. (Ref) Mathematical models of universes with different values and even different laws have shown no inherent contradictions. These are not the only possible values, or laws for that matter.

To claim that these constants were chosen by a God to produce life fails to explain that the vast majority of the universe is utterly incompatible with life. (And it requires assuming the existence of a God without addressing the above arguments about attributes and prior influences.) However, since life is a complex and highly improbable affair, in a multiverse scenario it would be expected that in the great majority of universes capable of supporting life at all, life would be a rarity existing only in some non-typical enclaves. Just like in this universe.

The impossible cannot exist. The possible can. It is not that great a jump from there to the idea that the possible does exist simply because it can. That existence is nothing other than being possible and that all possible universes exist. This would explain why anything exists and why we see such a convoluted and arbitrary something existing (this universe) without unexplainable assumptions or infinite regresses.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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08-07-2017, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 03:35 PM by Herminator.)
Post: #6
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  The impossible cannot exist. The possible can. It is not that great a jump from there to the idea that the possible does exist simply because it can. That existence is nothing other than being possible and that all possible universes exist. This would explain why anything exists and why we see such a convoluted and arbitrary something existing (this universe) without unexplainable assumptions or infinite regresses.

This is very true, but it will explode OP's brain Big Grin

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(and yes, I know it's an edit of the famous scene from "Scanners"!)

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08-07-2017, 07:27 PM
Post: #7
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
God is Energy, and the husband of the Lord/Messiah. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form. It is eternal, it is present everywhere in the Universe, and it is omnipotent. Specifically, it is the forces in nature. Gravitation, Electromagnetism, and the Nuclear forces. Daniel 11:38. "But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces..." God's wife is the Lord/Messiah. Isaiah 54:5-6. "For thy Maker is thine husband...For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God". God and the Lord are one. Genesis 2:24. "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh".
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08-08-2017, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2017 01:11 PM by shafri.)
Post: #8
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  For something to exist, it must have some specific attributes.
attributes are detectable nature, if its not detectable how are you going to know? but... there are many existent that was before never thought of existing.. because we cannot detect their attributes such as quarks, dark forces (matter), anti matter etc. it was believed atom is the smallest particle ever existing... no bloody man ever expected anti matter before the derivation of Dirac's formulation etc etc...

(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  The possibility of a multiverse satisfying all possible logical configurations has already appeared in both philosophy and physics. To consider only physics for the moment, the physical laws that have been developed account very well for the behavior of physical realty. But they require 19 physical constants of apparently arbitrary value that as far as anyone knows could have been different. (Ref) Mathematical models of universes with different values and even different laws have shown no inherent contradictions. These are not the only possible values, or laws for that matter.
it is also possible there are infinite multiverses out there, just as its possible for a one God who created all these multiverses...

(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  To claim that these constants were chosen by a God to produce life fails to explain that the vast majority of the universe is utterly incompatible with life
the incompatibility of life with different constants is just an assumption, not a hard proof... how can you prove the consequences (the effect of prior influences) of something that do not exist? (verse with different constants) its just as possible, with different constants, life/conciousness can exist, isnt it?

(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  The impossible cannot exist
impossibility is an assumption until its proven otherwise (until we perceive it. we learn from human history of knowledge discovery)

(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  That existence is nothing other than being possible and that all possible universes exist
the notion of possibility is derived from formulation man has made so far and the reality perceived, other than that is through phylosophycal argumentation (assumption and logic in the set of human mind). the later can be summarized as "assumption" or "illusion" or "delusional definitions" . and from history it will expand indefinitely, one day, what is thought impossible will become possible, due to advancement of sensoring devices, mathematical formulation, logic and theories. but when will be that day? 1 billion years from now? maybe. what if 1 billion years from now, God existence is proven, and the laws of the holy book thats available today is absolutely applicable. what happen to the non believers of today? the believers will be sorry for them.

in short as summary... your argumentations are based on logic or phylosophy, is equally not a hard proof... what available as a hard proof is the holy books that claim divinity. if those can be falsified, that i believe is good enough reason to dismiss God. the older book like Bible are proven to be unauthentic due to misinterpretation, reinterpretation etc. Quran is the latest and the last book is claimed remain authentic to its original content, maybe studying that may lead to some usefull conclusion. from what i studied (listening from people who studied the subject) if observed or researched carefully. most of the ancient book earlier than Quran hint the same thing... that God is one and has no (detectable) image, and the prophecy of the last messiah Muhammad. thats left for you to do the research... the clear proof that religion like christians, hindu, buddha are twisted because they believed in polytheistic (many Gods) where their book says otherwise (if interpreted correctly).

what about prophecies? many prophecies relating to the future time, namely in islam are proven to be correct, unless things that hasnt happened, what you have to say about it?

btw: one can be a good man for being religious, just a good (or even better) as the nonbelievers believed... there is absolutely nothing wrong with being religious. in fact, nonbelievers have to follow the notions of the holy books in order to live a healthy and peacefull life in society. its just when men interpret the content to their own mind, things can get out of hand. but that not the religion to be blamed, that the implementation made by the man from his interpretation. as someone said, what are you going to do about it? a knife can be good in one hand, but can be bad in anothers'. most importantly, what religion really has to offer/teach, in its rightful content and meaning?

(08-07-2017 06:03 AM)IMtM Wrote:  The correct word is notion, not "notation."
right, thanks. thats the word i was looking for :banging head:
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08-08-2017, 06:35 PM
Post: #9
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
(08-08-2017 12:57 PM)shafri Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  For something to exist, it must have some specific attributes.
attributes are detectable nature, if its not detectable how are you going to know? but... there are many existent that was before never thought of existing.. because we cannot detect their attributes such as quarks, dark forces (matter), anti matter etc. it was believed atom is the smallest particle ever existing... no bloody man ever expected anti matter before the derivation of Dirac's formulation etc etc...

Not sure what your point is. It is not necessary for something to be detected directly in order to exist and have attributes. For example: Atoms existed and had consequences long before there was even anyone to conceive of them, or of anything else. The consequences included everything about them including gravity due to mass, chemical processes, energy released by nuclear fission and fusion etc. The attributes of atoms are what leads to their consequences. Attributes lead to consequences. No attributes, no consequences. No attributes, no existence.

The traditional view of God is as the conscious, intelligent, volitional, intentional creator of the universe. Those are attributes. The idea is that those attributes are what allowed God to create the universe. The question I ask is why God should have those attributes and not others. They are not inherent in the nature of existence or everything that exists would have those attributes, obviously not the case. Since there is nothing (logically) prior to God, those attributes are unexplained. This violates the principle of sufficient reason. If that principle is to be dropped, then there is no reason for a creator deity in the first place.


(08-08-2017 12:57 PM)shafri Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  The possibility of a multiverse satisfying all possible logical configurations has already appeared in both philosophy and physics. To consider only physics for the moment, the physical laws that have been developed account very well for the behavior of physical realty. But they require 19 physical constants of apparently arbitrary value that as far as anyone knows could have been different. (Ref) Mathematical models of universes with different values and even different laws have shown no inherent contradictions. These are not the only possible values, or laws for that matter.
it is also possible there are infinite multiverses out there, just as its possible for a one God who created all these multiverses...

That would still not address why God would possess the attributes that lead to the act of creation. However, we might say that God had no choice in the act of creation. Perhaps omnipotence entails the requirement to create everything that is possible. One might argue that maximally fulfilled potential is a greater perfection than only partially fulfilled potential. Therefore, God had to have made everything possible. This eliminates the attributes of volition and intention. God had no choice.

The attributes of consciousness and intelligence do not seem to serve any purpose now. They were originally required to support volition and intention but those are no longer present in this scenario. It would seem the only reason for retaining them would be to line up with scripture based ideas of God. But a God that necessarily creates every possible universe, having no choice or intention in the matter, does not seem compatible with any form of religion.

And of course, consciousness and intelligence would still require a prior reason for their presence. The sufficient reason problem is still not solved. Unless one removes the requirement for those attributes as well. Now we are left with a non-conscious, non-intelligent, non-volitional, non-intentional power that creates all possible universes. Why should such a power exist? Introduce the principle that existence is nor more or less than being possible and the problems go away.


(08-08-2017 12:57 PM)shafri Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  To claim that these constants were chosen by a God to produce life fails to explain that the vast majority of the universe is utterly incompatible with life

the incompatibility of life with different constants is just an assumption, not a hard proof... how can you prove the consequences (the effect of prior influences) of something that do not exist? (verse with different constants) its just as possible, with different constants, life/consciousness can exist, isn’t it?

I believe you may be misunderstanding what I said. I did not say that different laws/constants ruled out consciousness. I said that in this universe life is a rarity, possible only in a very limited and uncommon set of circumstances. Other universes with different laws/constants might very well have life. My point was that life is a complicated affair requiring a complicated set of circumstances. If one were able to take a large random sampling of universes that happen to support life, because of the complexity needed for life it would typically be the case that life was a relatively rare event.


(08-08-2017 12:57 PM)shafri Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  The impossible cannot exist
impossibility is an assumption until its proven otherwise (until we perceive it. we learn from human history of knowledge discovery)

(08-07-2017 07:12 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  That existence is nothing other than being possible and that all possible universes exist

the notion of possibility is derived from formulation man has made so far and the reality perceived, other than that is through phylosophycal argumentation (assumption and logic in the set of human mind). the later can be summarized as "assumption" or "illusion" or "delusional definitions" . and from history it will expand indefinitely, one day, what is thought impossible will become possible, due to advancement of sensoring devices, mathematical formulation, logic and theories. but when will be that day? 1 billion years from now? maybe. what if 1 billion years from now, God existence is proven, and the laws of the holy book thats available today is absolutely applicable. what happen to the non believers of today? the believers will be sorry for them.

By impossible I mean inherent contradiction, that a thing is not what it is. This is a violation of basic logic, specifically the law of identity. I am not talking about trying to apply an erroneous definition to something and finding that it does not work. Whatever a thing is, independent of attempts at definition, that is what it is. A = A. An inherent contradiction would mean that a thing is not itself, an obvious error of thought. No future discoveries are going to change that.

(08-08-2017 12:57 PM)shafri Wrote:  in short as summary... your argumentations are based on logic or phylosophy, is equally not a hard proof... what available as a hard proof is the holy books that claim divinity. if those can be falsified, that i believe is good enough reason to dismiss God. the older book like Bible are proven to be unauthentic due to misinterpretation, reinterpretation etc. Quran is the latest and the last book is claimed remain authentic to its original content, maybe studying that may lead to some usefull conclusion. from what i studied (listening from people who studied the subject) if observed or researched carefully. most of the ancient book earlier than Quran hint the same thing... that God is one and has no (detectable) image, and the prophecy of the last messiah Muhammad. thats left for you to do the research... the clear proof that religion like christians, hindu, buddha are twisted because they believed in polytheistic (many Gods) where their book says otherwise (if interpreted correctly).

what about prophecies? many prophecies relating to the future time, namely in islam are proven to be correct, unless things that hasnt happened, what you have to say about it?

You can believe what you want, but your beliefs are supported only by your faith in your beliefs. The alleged ‘proofs’ are believable only to those who want to believe them. And no, I am not going to debate that since you do not believe in logic based arguments.

(08-08-2017 12:57 PM)shafri Wrote:  btw: one can be a good man for being religious, just a good (or even better) as the nonbelievers believed... there is absolutely nothing wrong with being religious. in fact, nonbelievers have to follow the notions of the holy books in order to live a healthy and peacefull life in society. its just when men interpret the content to their own mind, things can get out of hand. but that not the religion to be blamed, that the implementation made by the man from his interpretation. as someone said, what are you going to do about it? a knife can be good in one hand, but can be bad in anothers'. most importantly, what religion really has to offer/teach, in its rightful content and meaning?

I am not opposed to religion. It can do good things. I received 12 years of excellent education by women and men who got nothing material out of their efforts but room and board plus medical benefits and a good retirement plan. But religion can also do bad things. A major factor in the latter is when the religion claims a divine mandate to make everyone belong to that religion, if not in literal fact then by behavior, by whatever means are necessary. This is not unique to religion. Any ideology claiming an absolute mandate to spread its ‘benefits’ is just as bad.

But that is going astray from the topic I introduced for discussion and I do not intend to debate that. I will simply repeat: I am not opposed to religion.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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08-08-2017, 06:45 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2017 06:47 PM by PeterPants.)
Post: #10
RE: The Another "God does Exist Here's Why"
I agree with Imprecise interrupts comments on religion above entirely.

Shafri, you said:

Quote:what about prophecies? many prophecies relating to the future time, namely in islam are proven to be correct, unless things that hasnt happened, what you have to say about it?

things are not correct until proven wrong, unlike innocent until proven guilty, facts work the opposite way, wrong until proven right. Otherwise your stuck believing and acting upon an infinite number of baseless propositions until they are proven wrong, an impossible feat.

But im curious, what valid predictions do you think exist in the Quran exactly?

~~~

when we enter a discussion on matters of discordance, we should search for truth not victory, In this manner we always win, there are no losers.
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