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The Ceator
03-04-2010, 07:29 AM
Post: #1
The Ceator
If you believe that God(Allah, Buddha, Bon Dieu if you like, I'll use God for ease) created everything, space, time, matter, energy the universe everything then I would like some answers, without referring to your particular holy books, so a reasoned, brain arrived at, after all you believe that your God given abilities are what separates you from the animals, answers. All of these questions will not apply to All of the theists here.

1 Why do you believe that this small "mote in god's eye" on which we live is the only place in all of His great creation that He decided to place a sentient race, that He cares for, interracts with and looks like?

Now don't get me wrong I am not questioning your religious beliefs nor am I crticising them. I am, I think, asking you to critically analyse those beliefs regarding a being that can create everything and what His motives may or may not be.

2 If we are such creatures, as described in Q1, why would such a being create billions of us just so He could punish us for eternity if we refuse to worship Him?

Please no doublespeak about obeying his rules, His rules only exist in the aforementioned holy books. What we are hopefully doing is trying to ascertain the motivations of such a being, logically.

3 If He does in fact interract with us and give us direction, why is it so vague, misleading and contradictory, when relayed by so many different intermediary's?

4 How can any mere mortal possibly claim to understand the motivations of such a being, not withstanding the previous first three questions?

Because I would hope that we are theorising here, not claiming knowledge

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03-04-2010, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2010 08:33 AM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #2
RE: The Ceator
(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...Why do you believe that this small "mote in god's eye" on which we live is the only place in all of His great creation that He decided to place a sentient race, that He cares for, interracts with and looks like?...

God wants us to be free. Being free means that we have the option of rejecting him. We can look at the size of the universe and choose to believe either: 1) that it points to the extravagant creativity and love of God, or 2) that it points to our own insignificance and futility. Had God placed us in a tiny fishbowl, that would have limited our time and space, and hence our freedom to choose what we will believe about ourselves and God.


(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...If we are such creatures, as described in Q1, why would such a being create billions of us just so He could punish us for eternity if we refuse to worship Him?...

Unlike, say, the Islamic Allah, the Christian God does not predestine anyone to eternal punishment. Given that God in Jesus has already suffered enough to atone for the sins of all of us, it's doubtful that anyone will experience eternal punishment. If you read the book of Jonah, for example, you will see that even in the Old Testament God was notorious for relenting on punishment.


(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...If He does in fact interract with us and give us direction, why is it so vague, misleading and contradictory, when relayed by so many different intermediary's?...

You'd have to be more specific here. I don't find Jesus' teaching to be vague, misleading, and contradictory at all. And since no other religious founder ever rose from the dead, as I believe Jesus did, I don't personally find the need to put any stock in anything these others say that contradicts Jesus' teaching.


(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...How can any mere mortal possibly claim to understand the motivations of such a being, not withstanding the previous first three questions?...

I admit it would be difficult to understand God in our present human condition of frailness and fundamental epistemological uncertainty regarding all knowledge, not just knowledge of spiritual matters. We can look at the universe and we can examine our own thoughts and motivations, but this leads only to a vague notion of God. Jesus said that anyone who sees him sees God, and I believe him because I think he rose from the dead. Jesus is what God looks like; Jesus demonstrates how God thinks and acts and loves.

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03-04-2010, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2010 08:43 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #3
RE: The Ceator
Stereo I like and respect you and I like the way you think...........enough sucking up.....lol
But in 4 out of the 4 answers, you used your holy book. I am in no way denigrating your holy book. OK.
What I am trying to do is get you to think outside the square (as they say). Try to imagine being outside the universe, imagine being God and looking, feeling, being outside what you have created and at the same time being inside it. I want you to use your God given imagination. Not to doubt your already held beliefs. Just to close your eyes and imagine looking at the universe as God would. What do you see. Do you see magnificence, beauty, glory, struggle, wonder. If you do, then try again to answer the questions from within that paradigm. OK
Stereo wrote
God wants us to be free. Being free means that we have the option of rejecting him. We can look at the size of the universe and choose to believe either: 1) that it points to the extravagant creativity and love of God, or 2) that it points to our own insignificance and futility. Had God placed us in a tiny fishbowl, that would have limited our time and space, and hence our freedom to choose what we will believe about ourselves and God.

Just some perhaps less relevant points.
The futility argument I find hard to come to terms with if there is a God, whether that God is humancentric or not.
How do we know that we are not in a fishbowl, but even if we are isn't it a magnificent fishbowl?

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03-04-2010, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2010 09:14 AM by biomystic.)
Post: #4
RE: The Ceator
If you understand the Son of Man theology you will have the answers to your questions. Think of this: In the past 200 years human beings have gone from horse and buggies to flying to the moon, from using wood to keep us warm to using the power released from atomic fission and fusion. Now look at the future and what is the logical progression if we don't misstep and pollute ourselves to death? Not very long ago, we learned to avoid nuclear annihilation. In our future we will learn how to save the earth from catastrophic asteroid impact. If time is on our side, what will we be capable of in the year 3000 AD, 4000, 8000? To ancients seeing our world today we already have god-like powers. What of the far future?

Creation is the Problem Set we as God have given ourselves to learn in full, able to duplicate Creation, something we've already done in order to become God. Existence here is a phantom although it seems very real to us as we live out Creation's predetermined course. There is no "free will" if God is omniscient. We only think there is because we cannot see our future but it is running on a predetermined course. One can see this in the rare experience of seeing the world as maya, as illusion, something I experienced for three days running and it changed my whole worldview completely. The illusion of our lives was shown to me through three days of experiencing non-stop synchronicity events, one right after the other, and all of them adding together completely impossible to explain using any science we know of now. Synchronicity events cannot happen in a random event, materially deterministic universe yet they happen all the time to people. They are one of the "seams" of reality that show a different set of principles at work that so far are scientifically unexplainable. This was how I experienced the world as illusion and others here and there have also had this experience. Try renting and seeing the movie The Thirteenth Floor to get an idea of what it's like to realize your world is pre-programmed and illusional. It's a shock to the system but once you've seen the world as maya you can never again return to the illusion of free will or everything developing in a random chance universe.
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03-04-2010, 09:15 AM
Post: #5
RE: The Ceator
(03-04-2010 08:31 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...try again to answer the questions from within that paradigm...

If you want different answers, perhaps you could re-state your questions so that they don't appear (to me, anyway) to be based on misunderstandings of Christian Scripture. For example, where does your notion of "eternal punishment" come from, if not from scripture (whether rightly or wrongly interpreted)?


(03-04-2010 08:31 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...How do we know that we are not in a fishbowl, but even if we are isn't it a magnificent fishbowl?

By "fishbowl" I meant something wherein our planet would not be considered a tiny and insignificant "mote" in relation to the rest of the known universe.

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03-04-2010, 09:21 AM
Post: #6
RE: The Ceator
I am surprised biomystic, I thought, that if anyone could answer my questions your were right up there, near to, if not at the top. Instead you give me no answers, just a recitation from your book.
I'm dissapointed.

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03-04-2010, 10:36 AM
Post: #7
RE: The Ceator
These are all very good questions. Here are my thoughts regarding a few of the questions…

We, as humans need to accept the Creator’s right to govern human affairs or his sovereignty. It is only right that we do so. The maker of anything has a right to exercise a measure of control over what he has made. This principle has been reflected in ownership laws for centuries. Also, humans needed to accept the direction of their Maker because they were not designed with the ability to govern themselves successfully apart from their Creator, any more than they could stay alive if they did not eat, drink and breathe. Also, humans were created to be free agents. They were not made like robots or act on instinct like animals. But this freedom was to be relative, not absolute. It was to be exercised responsibly, within the boundaries of God’s laws, laws that worked for the common good. While relative freedom is desirable, too much freedom is not. If you give a child too much freedom, it may lead to him playing on a busy street or putting his hand on a hot stove. Total freedom to make all of our own decisions without considering our Maker’s direction can cause all kinds of problems.

God’s initial purpose for creating the earth and mankind was so that man can subdue it and fill the earth. He gave Adam and Eve the commission to expand the garden of Eden to cover the earth. The transformation of the earth into a lasting paradise is part of the divine purpose that has not yet been accomplished.
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03-04-2010, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2010 01:32 PM by kevlar.)
Post: #8
RE: The Ceator
Stereo I admit that I introduced a "holy book" concept in question 2 and I apologise.

If you are imagining (as I asked you to do) that you are the creator looking at your creation, What makes the "mote in gods eye" more important than any of the other motes.
But if we were in a fishbowl wouldn't our "motes" significance be greater and not less?
Without meaning to cause offense, I think that you are seeing a corner of the painting about 2cm x 2cm. What beautiful painting it is, and how great is the painter. But the rest of the painting is the size of infinity. Maybe.
(03-04-2010 10:36 AM)jwitness Wrote:  These are all very good questions. Here are my thoughts regarding a few of the questions…

We, as humans need to accept the Creator’s right to govern human affairs or his sovereignty. It is only right that we do so. The maker of anything has a right to exercise a measure of control over what he has made. This principle has been reflected in ownership laws for centuries. Also, humans needed to accept the direction of their Maker because they were not designed with the ability to govern themselves successfully apart from their Creator, any more than they could stay alive if they did not eat, drink and breathe. Also, humans were created to be free agents. They were not made like robots or act on instinct like animals. But this freedom was to be relative, not absolute. It was to be exercised responsibly, within the boundaries of God’s laws, laws that worked for the common good. While relative freedom is desirable, too much freedom is not. If you give a child too much freedom, it may lead to him playing on a busy street or putting his hand on a hot stove. Total freedom to make all of our own decisions without considering our Maker’s direction can cause all kinds of problems.

God’s initial purpose for creating the earth and mankind was so that man can subdue it and fill the earth. He gave Adam and Eve the commission to expand the garden of Eden to cover the earth. The transformation of the earth into a lasting paradise is part of the divine purpose that has not yet been accomplished.

So much of what you have written jw is derived from your already held beliefs, which is really coming from your book. I am not trying to convert anyone. I don't even have a religious belief. What I have said to stereo I'll say to you. Try to think outside the box. The creator of everything, now to me that is well beyond my comprehension. As such, given the enormity of His creation, why do all religions believe they know what He wants. Without reference to a book that the writers said this is what he wants. I do not mean to denigrate your beliefs at all jw, I enjoy our conversations.
I realise that the questions I have asked are difficult to answer as a clean slate as it were. To ignore all of the religious teachings that you have already absorbed. In fact it is probably impossible, but I would be happy if you might indulge me. Thanks

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03-04-2010, 05:09 PM
Post: #9
RE: The Ceator
(03-04-2010 09:21 AM)kevlar Wrote:  I am surprised biomystic, I thought, that if anyone could answer my questions your were right up there, near to, if not at the top. Instead you give me no answers, just a recitation from your book.
I'm dissapointed.

I get lazy sometimes in my responses. What specifically do you want to know? List your specific questions and I will respond in my usual wishy-washy nebulous gnostic way..Rolleyes
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03-04-2010, 09:15 PM
Post: #10
RE: The Ceator
(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  If you believe that God(Allah, Buddha, Bon Dieu if you like, I'll use God for ease) created everything, space, time, matter, energy the universe everything then I would like some answers, without referring to your particular holy books, so a reasoned, brain arrived at, after all you believe that your God given abilities are what separates you from the animals, answers. All of these questions will not apply to All of the theists here.

1 Why do you believe that this small "mote in god's eye" on which we live is the only place in all of His great creation that He decided to place a sentient race, that He cares for, interracts with and looks like?

Well, since many of the remnants of Slavic and Baltic pagan belief are folkloric, any story- including the creation story- has been told many ways with slight variations. However, the common theme is that man is an accidental biproduct of the creation of the world and animals. In some tales, Dievas spits while laboring and one day comes across a creature he can't remember making. Then he remembers he spat there. In other tales, it's a drop of sweat from his brow. The implications are clear either way.

(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Now don't get me wrong I am not questioning your religious beliefs nor am I crticising them. I am, I think, asking you to critically analyse those beliefs regarding a being that can create everything and what His motives may or may not be.

2 If we are such creatures, as described in Q1, why would such a being create billions of us just so He could punish us for eternity if we refuse to worship Him?
Please no doublespeak about obeying his rules, His rules only exist in the aforementioned holy books. What we are hopefully doing is trying to ascertain the motivations of such a being, logically.

I see you had a specific religious background in mind. Still, I've started replying already, and maybe there is something I can contribute. Christianity is actually fairly unique in its afterlife punishment belief. Zoroastrianism believed that the bad would go the the house of lies, and the good to rai (paradise), but they believed- logically I think- that a perfect God would eventually redeem all souls. In other words, they scratched off the "eternal" part. Many people have believed in a temporary punishment at most, even the Jews.

(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  3 If He does in fact interract with us and give us direction, why is it so vague, misleading and contradictory, when relayed by so many different intermediary's?

Well, I don't believe he does intereact with us all that much. Being the creator is just one role, and the others have been distributed to other appointed Gods who do interact with us. There are and have been quite a few Gods in the world, so they can't have been too aloof.


(03-04-2010 07:29 AM)kevlar Wrote:  4 How can any mere mortal possibly claim to understand the motivations of such a being, not withstanding the previous first three questions?

That's a lot of the point of what I believe. The creator is fairly unknowable. His children who oversee the Earth are more easily relatable and human-like, pehaps because they are meant to interact with us and oversee us (along with the rest of nature.)
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