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The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
04-16-2017, 09:38 PM
Post: #1
The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
The Athanasian Creed of Christianity

(note: the word “catholic” below with lower case “c” means “universal”)

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this:

That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

[End of the Christian Athanasian Creed]

underlining for emphasis one by us)

presented by: http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com
for information only..... just so, if you are a Christian" you may need to explain it.

This is how "YHWH" Yahweh (the Ever-Living) Almighty Sovereign Creator Power defines Himself in the Hebrew Scriptures:

Isa 45:5
I am Yahweh, and there is no one else. Besides me, there is no Mighty One (God). I will strengthen you, though you have not known me;

Isa 45:6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is no one besides me. I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

(if you are intelligent, you should see a difference)


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04-18-2017, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 04-18-2017 10:17 AM by FilmFlaneur.)
Post: #2
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
Quote:Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Some other Bibles have this notable phrase as "I ... create evil".

Given that God elsewhere admits in finding pleasure in His creation the implications are tremendous.
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04-18-2017, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 04-18-2017 10:56 AM by AOYCascade.)
Post: #3
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
(04-18-2017 10:17 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  
Quote:Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

Some other Bibles have this notable phrase as "I ... create evil".

Given that God elsewhere admits in finding pleasure in His creation the implications are tremendous.

Yes, I agree, but let us not forget, the true Almighty is Just, and Righteous, and also "forgives with repentance." People forget who is in "charge" of Creation even if things do not appear to go as "they" want it to go. "evil" is a poor choice by the KJV and other English Bibles. The Hebrew "root meaning" is "bad." Bad is a relative term, and bad effects can also be used for "good purposes" such as punishment as an action to force correction. As an example: punishment by a parent to a child done in love, to correct actions and/or to teach and thereby protect.

Hebrew (RGh) - I. Bad: Something dysfunctional, wrong, evil or wicked. II. Shout: To shout an alarm, war or great rejoicing. [freq. 666] |kjv: evil, wickedness, wicked, mischief, hurt, bad, trouble, sore, affliction, ill, adversity, favoured, harm, naught, noisesome, grievous, sad, shout, noise, aloud| {str: 7451, 7452}

Read: 1 Sam. 2: 6-10 (who is going to defy the "True" Mighty One of the Hebrew Bible??) Not Me!

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04-19-2017, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 04-19-2017 07:34 AM by FilmFlaneur.)
Post: #4
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
(04-18-2017 10:55 AM)AOYCascade Wrote:  Yes, I agree, but let us not forget, the true Almighty is Just, and Righteous, and also "forgives with repentance."

There has been quite a bit of discussion over what it entails when God (as we are told He does several times) "repents", for it can mean both "is sorry" as well as "changes His mind". It is hard to comfortably reconcile either of these with omniscience and the idea that God can be 'wrong' about anything, at least without some hard special pleading. Bluntly, if He is sorry then a perfect God has, well, acted imperfectly and so regrets the failing. If He has changed His mind then an unchanging God He is not - or at least did not know His mind in the first place.



Quote: People forget who is in "charge" of Creation even if things do not appear to go as "they" want it to go. "evil" is a poor choice by the KJV and other English Bibles. The Hebrew "root meaning" is "bad." Bad is a relative term, and bad effects can also be used for "good purposes" such as punishment as an action to force correction. As an example: punishment by a parent to a child done in love, to correct actions and/or to teach and thereby protect.

Indeed; but this still does not excuse God's creation of childhood cancers, say though, and related natural evils (the type apologists commonly see represented by the word "evil" or your preferred, lesser, "bad") nor does it explain why God would take pleasure, even if we accept your example, in punishment or coercion such as He admits to. Saying that some 'bad' things can be, actually, quite useful and good does not let the Almighty off the hook either since this would still not always be the case and something are way beyond just 'bad'.
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04-19-2017, 05:28 PM
Post: #5
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
(04-19-2017 07:33 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 10:55 AM)AOYCascade Wrote:  Yes, I agree, but let us not forget, the true Almighty is Just, and Righteous, and also "forgives with repentance."

There has been quite a bit of discussion over what it entails when God (as we are told He does several times) "repents", for it can mean both "is sorry" as well as "changes His mind". It is hard to comfortably reconcile either of these with omniscience and the idea that God can be 'wrong' about anything, at least without some hard special pleading. Bluntly, if He is sorry then a perfect God has, well, acted imperfectly and so regrets the failing. If He has changed His mind then an unchanging God He is not - or at least did not know His mind in the first place.



Quote: People forget who is in "charge" of Creation even if things do not appear to go as "they" want it to go. "evil" is a poor choice by the KJV and other English Bibles. The Hebrew "root meaning" is "bad." Bad is a relative term, and bad effects can also be used for "good purposes" such as punishment as an action to force correction. As an example: punishment by a parent to a child done in love, to correct actions and/or to teach and thereby protect.

Indeed; but this still does not excuse God's creation of childhood cancers, say though, and related natural evils (the type apologists commonly see represented by the word "evil" or your preferred, lesser, "bad") nor does it explain why God would take pleasure, even if we accept your example, in punishment or coercion such as He admits to. Saying that some 'bad' things can be, actually, quite useful and good does not let the Almighty off the hook either since this would still not always be the case and something are way beyond just 'bad'.

It is our belief, that most everything “bad” to us happens because of a violation of “YHWH’s (Yahweh’s) natural laws” or YHWH’s written law. Even health issues are likely caused because someone in the genealogy line violated YHWH’s law. That includes interracial marriages (forbidden for Israelites) or many other violations of YHWH’s laws. Causes of enfant disease may be caused by health issues, due to poor or improper food, hygiene, air pollution, ground pollution, and maybe traced to chemicals, etc. all caused by violations of the natural or environmental laws. The cause may have been years down the genealogy line, or even through the actions of the ancient ancestors but will pop up sooner or later. There is no free ride. For every action we take, there is a reaction that will occur to us. . . . . . Sooner or later we will have a result. Ecc. 12:13-14.

Accidents happen yes, but most all are due to mechanical failure; a violation of natural law, like someone screwed up with design or engineering or forgot to tighten a bolt, contaminated the fuel, etc. In the case of air crashes, pilot error, someone made a mistake, ran out of fuel, or miscalculated. In cars, wasn’t paying attention, drunk driving, one car crashing into another caused by someone’s violation of the civil or natural law, going too fast for conditions or talking on the phone.

Gun issues, all violations of the law both criminal and carelessness, or caused by envy, hatred, race issues. In summary, most everything bad has a particular cause due to violations of laws, criminal, civil, against deity, or against the natural laws that YHWH has established to control. The unfortunate question would be, why do those we believe are the innocent also have to suffer the consequences. Only YHWH knows the answer for that one. I am sure there is, but do we need to know?

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04-20-2017, 06:54 AM (This post was last modified: 04-20-2017 06:57 AM by FilmFlaneur.)
Post: #6
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
(04-19-2017 05:28 PM)AOYCascade Wrote:  It is our belief, that most everything “bad” to us happens because of a violation of “YHWH’s (Yahweh’s) natural laws” or YHWH’s written law.

If your God admits to creating evil or even just "badness" then this belief still does not absolve Him of things. At best it just provides a justification for the further perpetration of it.

Quote: Even health issues are likely caused because someone in the genealogy line violated YHWH’s law.

Presumably then we put earthquakes and tidal waves (which are also natural evils or "badness" created by God) down as divine punishment in the same way?

Quote:That includes interracial marriages (forbidden for Israelites) or many other violations of YHWH’s laws.

I had no idea that anti-miscegenation laws were still fashionable. Are people of mixed origins allowed to hold hands in public, in your neck of the woods or does that bring consequences on future generations too?

Quote: Causes of enfant disease may be caused by health issues, due to poor or improper food, hygiene, air pollution, ground pollution, and maybe traced to chemicals, etc. all caused by violations of the natural or environmental laws.

But here there is some confusion, since environmental laws are the work of men not God. When Trump works to roll back environmental laws, and yet the Bible tells all to obey the duly constituted authorities, does the ensuing "badness" you might detect spring from God, or man?

Quote: The cause may have been years down the genealogy line, or even through the actions of the ancient ancestors but will pop up sooner or later. There is no free ride. For every action we take, there is a reaction that will occur to us. . . . . . Sooner or later we will have a result. Ecc. 12:13-14.

And all it needs is a subjective guess at when these 'results' happen and to who they are applicable, eh? I hit my thumb with a hammer last week. Does that mean I am paying for the sins of an ancestor. Since it was only a little bad thing, perhaps it was just for a moment of mild blasphemy from the 16th century?

Quote: Accidents happen yes, but most all are due to mechanical failure; a violation of natural law, like someone screwed up with design or engineering or forgot to tighten a bolt, contaminated the fuel, etc.

And who made the 'natural law'? Or did it just happen?

Quote: In the case of air crashes, pilot error, someone made a mistake, ran out of fuel, or miscalculated. In cars, wasn’t paying attention, drunk driving, one car crashing into another caused by someone’s violation of the civil or natural law, going too fast for conditions or talking on the phone.

Your attempt to remove God from the equation, even though He admits to creating all badness, is special pleading. And also, let it be said, that all that is necessary for any "badness" to succeed is for an omnipotent deity to do nothing, walk by on the other side, so to speak.

Quote: In summary, most everything bad has a particular cause due to violations of laws, criminal, civil, against deity, or against the natural laws that YHWH has established to control. The unfortunate question would be, why do those we believe are the innocent also have to suffer the consequences. Only YHWH knows the answer for that one. I am sure there is, but do we need to know?

Bluntly, yes. For, if nothing else, with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. But I am pleased to hear that you do not, at the last, have any answer for why the innocent have to suffer natural evil.
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04-20-2017, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 04-20-2017 08:10 AM by Trump-it.)
Post: #7
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
Atheist have a lot to say. I have to wonder why it is that man can't even duplicate a blade of grass or a paramecium in the laboratory, without starting with one in the first place, yet, they have no problem telling us that the universe was all an accidental occurrence.
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04-20-2017, 08:29 AM
Post: #8
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
why? because the complexity of a blade of grass has developed over billions of years through highly complex natural systems, systems working on very tiny elements of reality. We exist on a much larger scale then these elements, and there are an INSANE number of them making up the foundations of a blade of grass...
we can only barely manipulate the basic elements of a blade of grass, and not on any where near the kind of scale we would need to to replicate a blade of grass. this is because we are still very technically limited, we are new to this really.

and no... no one says the universe was an 'accidental occurrence'...
thats just your ignorant view of something you clearly know nothing about.

The universe occurred as a result of the basic demonstrable laws of the universe, which as far as we can tell, have always existed.

~~~

when we enter a discussion on matters of discordance, we should search for truth not victory, In this manner we always win, there are no losers.
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04-20-2017, 08:36 AM (This post was last modified: 04-20-2017 08:45 AM by Trump-it.)
Post: #9
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
(04-20-2017 08:29 AM)PeterPants Wrote:  why? because the complexity of a blade of grass has developed over billions of years through highly complex natural systems, systems working on very tiny elements of reality. We exist on a much larger scale then these elements, and there are an INSANE number of them making up the foundations of a blade of grass...
we can only barely manipulate the basic elements of a blade of grass, and not on any where near the kind of scale we would need to to replicate a blade of grass. this is because we are still very technically limited, we are new to this really.

and no... no one says the universe was an 'accidental occurrence'...
thats just your ignorant view of something you clearly know nothing about.

The universe occurred as a result of the basic demonstrable laws of the universe, which as far as we can tell, have always existed.

Only an Atheist would say that something COMPLEX was an accident, and then say we are technically limited to produce a blade of grass, and then declare everything was a mindless accident. Only an atheist would say that it took a mind to make my burrito, but NOT the universe!

The fact that you are able to compute a denial of God through the science of mind, proves "you aren't an accidental mistake." The fact that God created things and man discovers them THROUGH science, proves one thing...

If it took science to discover things around us, it had to be science that created it.
If the universe, our planet, and our bodies are an accidental occurrence, why don't we see mindless accidents produce living things today? Is that too logical for you? Are you going to write this off AGAIN blaming your inability to answer on the question?

What about that mouse you're clicking, or the little box besides you computing things, or the means by which the internet works. Was that all the result of an accident?

Quote:we can only barely manipulate the basic elements of a blade of grass
If we, "can only barely manipulate the basic elements of a blade of grass," that means our mind is insufficient in understanding the mind that created it which is the basis for my question.

"If science is the method we use to understand the things around us, then it had to be a mind that created it?"
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04-20-2017, 08:51 AM
Post: #10
RE: The Christian "God" no one should believe in !
(04-20-2017 08:08 AM)Trump-it Wrote:  Atheist have a lot to say. I have to wonder why it is that man can't even duplicate a blade of grass or a paramecium in the laboratory, without starting with one in the first place, yet, they have no problem telling us that the universe was all an accidental occurrence.

Believers cannot point to either of those things appearing out of thin air either, and require magic as a process to make things work - so your point is?
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