Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Dark Ages [split from Do people have a conscience?]
07-08-2009, 04:48 PM
Post: #1
The Dark Ages [split from Do people have a conscience?]
Politics cares nothing for morality. Politics is always about power of some sort. Economic, military, geographic, social, some sort of power. That's why wars are fought, that's why alliances are made.

And yes, Religion did indeed have supreme power in the Dark Ages. The one era of mankind where technology and man's standard of living actually went BACKWARD in Europe. When religion reigns supreme, society weakens.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2009, 05:09 PM
Post: #2
RE: Do people have a conscience?
(07-08-2009 04:48 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  ...the Dark Ages...where technology and man's standard of living actually went BACKWARD in Europe...

Historians today are reckognizing that this old canard really was never true.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2009, 05:28 PM
Post: #3
RE: Do people have a conscience?
Which historians? Not the ones I read. Oh, its true misconceptions about the so-called "Dark Ages" abound, and it wasn't just a stagnant time when nothing happened, but it did represent a backward trend in social progression.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2009, 07:57 PM
Post: #4
RE: Do people have a conscience?
(07-08-2009 05:28 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  ...Which historians? Not the ones I read...

Why am I not surprised?

From Wikipedia:

Quote:...When modern scholarly study of the Middle Ages arose in the 19th century, the term "Dark Ages" was at first kept, with all its critical overtones. Although it was never the more formal term (universities named their departments "medieval history" not "Dark Age history"), it was widely used, including in such classics as Edward Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which expressed the author's contempt for the "rubbish of the Dark Ages". However, the early 20th century saw a radical re-evaluation of the Middle Ages, and with it a calling into question of the terminology of darkness. Historiographer Denys Hay exemplified this when he spoke ironically of "the lively centuries which we call dark". It became clear that serious scholars would either have to redefine the term or abandon it.

When the term "Dark Ages" is used by historians today, it is intended to be neutral ... the neutral use of the term today applies mainly to those cultures in Europe least Christianized and thus most sparsely covered by the Catholic Church's historians.

...from the mid-20th century onwards, other scholars began to critique even this nonjudgmental use of the term. There are two main criticisms. First, it is questionable whether it is possible to use the term "Dark Ages" effectively in a neutral way; scholars may intend this, but it does not mean that ordinary readers will so understand it. Second, the explosion of new knowledge and insight into the history and culture of the Early Middle Ages, which 20th-century scholarship has achieved, means that these centuries are no longer dark even in the sense of "unknown to us". Consequently, many academic writers prefer not to use the expression at all, and a recently published history of German literature describes the term as "a popular if ignorant manner of speaking."

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2009, 08:10 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2009 08:55 PM by PatPar.)
Post: #5
RE: Do people have a conscience?
(07-08-2009 04:48 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  And yes, Religion did indeed have supreme power in the Dark Ages. The one era of mankind where technology and man's standard of living actually went BACKWARD in Europe. When religion reigns supreme, society weakens.

Ok, they changed the name for the period. Still, religion preserved and held things together when society fell apart.

The Roman Catholic Church, the only centralized institution to survive the fall of the Western Roman Empire intact, was the sole unifying cultural influence in the West, selectively preserving some Latin learning, maintaining the art of writing, and preserving a centralized administration through its network of bishops ordained in succession. The Early Middle Ages are characterized by the urban control of bishops and the territorial control exercised by dukes and counts. The rise of urban communes marked the beginning of the High Middle Ages
Islamic scholar Al-Khwārizmī (790-840) wrote the The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing, the first book on algebra. (The word "algebra" comes from the Arabic title of the book. The word "algorithm" comes from al-Khwārizmī's name.) He also wrote The Image of the Earth, an updated version of Ptolemy's Geography, and participated in a project to determine the circumference of the Earth by measuring the length of a degree of meridian on a plain in Iraq.
In the course of the 11th century, Islam's scientific knowledge began to reach Western Europe. The astrolabe, invented in classical times, was reintroduced to Europe. The works of Euclid and Archimedes, lost in the West, were translated from Arabic to Latin in Spain. The modern Hindu-Arabic numerals, including a notation for zero, was developed by Hindu mathematicians in the fifth and sixth centuries. Muslim mathematicians learned of it in the seventh century and added a notation for decimal fractions in the ninth and tenth centuries. Around 1000, Gerbert of Aurillac (later Pope Sylvester II) made an abacus with counters engraved with Hindu-Arabic numbers. A treatise by Al-Khwārizmī on how to perform calculations with these numerals was translated into Latin in Spain in the 12th century.



Can We Get Back On Topic
It is one thing to hold to a minority view that dislikes religion and attempt to lose your minority position by loudly discouraging the religious beliefs of others. After all, we have freedom of speech in the US.
But, can we at least stay ON TOPIC

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/discipleschrist/
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-09-2009, 12:11 AM
Post: #6
RE: Do people have a conscience?
Stereophonic, surely you must have realized that the quote you gave only criticizes the use of the term "dark ages". I'll agree to that. It's a poor term. I should not have used it. It is inaccurate and conjures images of dirty Terry Gilliam movies.

But the middle ages, between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance, was a time when philosophy, technology, and society in Europe slid backwards from the heights it had reached under the Romans, heights it would not reach again until the Renaissance. While Arabia (which was surprisingly religiously tolerant, although run by Muslims) India (going through a religious and philosophical boom with philosophers from all lands) and China (which really had no major religious influence during that time to speak of) were going through their golden eras, Europe, with its fundamentalist dogma and its inquisition oh-so-eager to burn, slid into ignorance.

A whole lot of things happened in the middle ages. Politics was shaped. The Roman civilization made its transition to Western civilization. But it was still a time of cruelty, oppression, and ignorance, a step backward from the Romans. Now, perhaps you can blame that on something other than religion, but it is a fact that religion reigned supreme, and that the Renaissance brought with it an up swell of humanism that eventually led to the Reformation.

Far be it from me to use a post hoc fallacy, but the timing does seem quite interesting.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-09-2009, 12:42 AM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2009 03:07 PM by PatPar.)
Post: #7
RE: Do people have a conscience?
Well, considering that Rome was a huge empire which then fell apart leaving no social infrastructure it is not so surprising. When you add to that he bubonic plague, which struck in A.D. 540, and subsequently became known as the worst pandemic to ever afflict humanity, terrible famines, and the savage imperial wars it certainly leaves little room to blame religion. At its peak, the plague was killing 10,000 people in Constantinople every day. Entire villages and towns were obliterated. As the 'modern' medicine of the Greek period was of no use curing the plague, the people turned for consolation to monastic medicine and the teachings of Christianity. The monks in the monasteries quickly became the spiritual as well as bodily healers by tending both to the needs of the soul and of the body. The failure of Greek medicine essentially halted the advancement of medical knowledge for centuries.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/discipleschrist/
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-09-2009, 05:38 AM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2009 08:46 AM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #8
RE: Do people have a conscience?
(07-09-2009 12:11 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  ...the quote you gave only criticizes the use of the term...

You're being silly again, GT. You failed to notice why the term "dark ages" is now considered "a popular if ignorant manner of speaking." It isn't because historians all of a sudden got cold feet about calling a spade a spade. As the article stated, historians were forced to re-evaluate their terminology because of "the explosion of new knowledge and insight into the history and culture of the Early Middle Ages." I guess your "fact checkers" aren't as good as you think they are.

Interesting to note also is that when the various plagues hit, Christians were the ones caring for the sick and burying the dead while most ordinary folks were skipping town as fast as they could, abandoning their sick relatives and friends.

Christians, in other words, were the ones with conscience.

Some good sources, for anyone interested:

The Rise of Christianity

Christianity on Trial

For the Glory of God

The Moral Sense

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-09-2009, 09:57 AM
Post: #9
RE: Do people have a conscience?
When the plagues hit, Christians were quite literally the only people around. They used to kill people for not being a Christian, you know.

Further, if you actually would read my post . . .

You know what, forget it. You read my posts, you then misquote and lie about them. Just like you misquote and lie about your sources. All the time.

We are living in a dark time in American, and even world history. The economy is collapsing. The whole infrastructure of the American economy is based on false concepts, and the European economy is not much better. In this situation, the truth about history becomes vital.

Santayana said you can either know history, or repeat history. He was right. And yet revisionist history is all we have. We have a mythical history where the Founding Fathers were gods (and good Christians!) Where the New Deal either did nothing at all, or else saved the world. Where the economic crisis can be blamed on a political party, or a philosophy, rather than the slow undermining of anything legitimate and, well, monetary about the economy.

We are living in an era where America will either rise like a Phoenix from the ashes, or it will cease to exist as a superpower. And all of that hinges on people, ordinary people who vote for their leaders, not being misled, not being lied to, and finding the truth. Truth is more important now than it ever has been for Americans, because if they continue believing lies about history, about politics, and about the economy, this nation will collapse under the weight of its own deceptive system.

It's about principles. Seeking out the truth, no matter how painful, no matter how much it contradicts us. Being willing to change your views, change your very way of life if you discover the old way is wrong. Hating lies with a passion, and loving truth completely. These are the moral principles that must exist for the new age.

And this is why Stereophonic disgusts me. This is why he fills my throat with bile. Because he lies about history. He lies about what people said, what they did, and the truth. He knows the truth, or at least he knows what he says is wrong, but he lies about it anyway. And sure, you can say he's just some schmuck on an internet forum about religion, same as the rest of us . . . but it's not just Stereophonic. His lies are the same lies that are told in American schools, from their pulpits, on their news programs, in political speeches. Right now America is being run by men like Stereophonic, and that is why I despair.

The change starts with ordinary people. Ordinary people who refuse to listen to this kind of crap. Ordinary people who stand up and say, "No, that's not right." Who seek the truth themselves. Who find the truth about religion, about the economy, about politics. Who look at history, the great truth-teller, not through the jaded lens of modern expedience, but through the cold, cruel lens of ACTUAL HISTORY.

Reject the liars. Seek the truth for yourself. If enough people do this, we will be saved. If not . . . we've got maybe a generation left, if we're lucky, before the whole thing collapses on us.

I'm back baby! Thanks for everyone who sent me PMs asking what had happened to me.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
07-09-2009, 06:40 PM (This post was last modified: 07-09-2009 06:47 PM by Anglican.)
Post: #10
RE: The Dark Ages [split from Do people have a conscience?]
As I understand it, the term dark ages refers to the time between the collapse of the Roman Empire up until roughly the coronation of Charlemagne. "Dark" because relatively few records survive from the period, and we do not know too much about it. Pretty well all you read about Britain during that period comes from a single source: Bede's "History of the English Speaking Peoples."
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCE RonPrice 0 381 12-20-2011 07:25 PM
Last Post: RonPrice
  Do people have a conscience? PatPar 18 6,474 02-04-2010 10:32 AM
Last Post: Parousia



User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)